More miscellany Parts One & Two (Evolution)

by David Turell , Monday, October 21, 2024, 19:27 (31 days ago) @ dhw

I did answer, apparently didn't submit!

Cancer and cellular autonomy

DAVID: Cancer cells are rebels. […] They act autonomously as rebels. (dhw’s bold)

dhw: If cancer cells are able to take their own autonomous decisions, then there has to be some kind of decision-making mechanism that directs their molecules to “rebel”. Why would your God give them that mechanism, but not give it to “normal” cells? […]

DAVID: Cancer cells are from bad mutations/mistakes in DNA. Once started they use God's standard instructions to survive.
And:
DAVID: Not smarter than God. Destroying normal cells is secondary to growth patterns of cancer, squeezing out normal cells.

dhw: They do both, but it makes no difference: you’ve still got your God inexplicably giving cancer cells autonomy, and denying autonomy to the normal cells.

God didn't do it!!! The cells changed themselves as described above.

Double standards

DAVID: Wrap yourself in a nice safe no-position stance. I choose faith with reasoning 'beyond a reasonable doubt' as a juror would. […]

dhw: How can it be beyond a reasonable doubt that your God had to design billions of stars etc. in order to design us humans plus food???

DAVID: Don't confuse my basis for faith with specific issues. Once choosing faith in God, all He does is acceptable as reasonable for Him.

dhw: “Beyond a reasonable doubt” can only be based on reason being applied to specific issues! You have told us you were once an agnostic, but one reason for your faith in the existence of God is the issue of intelligent design. How could chance create all the complexities of life? One up for belief. One issue for disbelief in the existence of God is the sheer vastness of the universe, with its endless comings and goings for no apparent purpose, which would appear to be incompatible with a single planning mind; furthermore, if planning minds require design, what designed the planning mind which the faithful worship? Two up for disbelief.

Your disbelief of the vast universe forgets God made the Big Bang to start and evolve it. That you can't see purpose is beside the point to me. You negate first cause theory.

dhw: It’s OK for you to accept an irrational theory, but it’s not OK for you if atheists accept an irrational theory. Double standards.[…]

DAVID: All your use of double standards accusations is a blanket protection for yourself.

dhw: How can it protect me if you attack atheists for being irrational while at the same time you agree that you cannot find a single reason to defend your irrational theory of evolution, with the vast universe being designed for the single purpose of creating us plus food?

When do you think God actually gave me His reasoning?

Human evolution: Lots of interbreeding and Early Hand Use

DAVID: Cellular intelligence at minimal degree. Free-for-all only at as dog-eat-dog level.

dhw: Don’t forget human free will as part of a free-for-all, especially since that would relieve your God of responsibility for much of the world’s evil. “Only at dog-eat-dog level” encompasses the whole history of life on Earth, as all organisms try to find ways of surviving. This entails surviving against one another AND surviving against changing conditions, partly through innovation. You allow them autonomy for the former, but won’t even consider autonomy for the latter.

DAVID: We have brains, cells don't.

dhw: You have produced countless examples of brainless intelligence from the plant world.

Minor adaptations.

Ecosystem importance: insects and spiders contribute

DAVID: Early systems evolve into today's systems. Have you forgotten how evolution works?

dhw: Your usual attempt to lump the whole history of planet Earth into preparation for us. Do you really believe that every organism and ecosystem that ever existed led to today’s organisms and ecosystems?

Yes. See next:

DAVID: Humans now use everything on Earth. You conveniently forget this.

dhw: I don’t know how we use the weaverbird’s nest, the cuttlefish’s camouflage, or the millions of life forms we never even knew about until they were recently discovered in weird places. And I have no idea what use we make of the millions of life forms and ecosystems that have died out during the 3.X billion years before we even existed.

Of course the past is dead! All current ecosystems interlock.

Predators among bacteria

DAVID: it is dog-eat-dog all the way down to microscopic predators who surprisingly have a armory of different physical and chemical weapons.

dhw: Yes, their intelligence is astonishing, as is the ability of single cells to combine and cooperate at all levels of existence in the great free-for-all struggle for survival.

DAVID: Agreed.

dhw: Delighted to see you acknowledge the intelligence even of single cells.

All automatic.