Return to David's theory of evolution and purpose (Evolution)

by dhw, Friday, February 16, 2024, 11:30 (279 days ago) @ David Turell

99.9% and 0.1%

This whole discussion has been a (fairly) successful attempt to divert attention away from the basic question I have been posing for years. Let us end the digression with the all-important quote:

dhw: DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WE AND OUR FOOD ARE DIRECTLY DESCENDED FROM 99.9% OF ALL CREATURES THAT EVER LIVED?

DAVID: NO. FROM THE 0.1% SURVIVING.

dhw: Let us now forget about percentages, and consider each of your theories one by one. You have accepted that there have been species from which we and our food (our contemporary species) are not descended. Your theory is that we and all current species were your God’s purpose from the very beginning. You believe that he individually created every species that ever lived. You believe that he culled all the species that were not going to lead to contemporary species. QUESTION: Why would an all-powerful, all-knowing God deliberately, messily, cumbersomely and inefficiently design and then cull species which he knew were not going to lead to the only species he wanted to design?
In the past you have admitted that you don’t know the answer. But you refuse to accept the possibility that one or more of your basic premises might be wrong.
Please pinpoint anything in the above that you disagree with. If you accept its accuracy, we can end the discussion on percentages, which sheds no light on the question.

DAVID: Again, I have no idea why God chose to evolve us. I see a purposeful God setting out lines of specific organisms to fit His final goals of all the species on the Earth for humans to use.

Here we go again! You also see a purposeful God setting out to design and then cull lines of specific organisms that have nothing to do with all the species currently on Earth, so what might have been his purpose for designing them? You have no idea. Stop dodging!

DAVID: No lines were ever sacrificed., which is your premise. What God destroyed were twigs/branches of lines He trimmed away.

It’s you who say that ALL the lines were deliberately designed and culled (now "sacrificed"), including the millions of “twigs/branches” that did NOT grow into the only ones he wanted to design. Stop dodging!

DAVID: I have the same complaint you have. Evolution is a messy system.

It’s not evolution that’s messy. It’s your interpretation that makes your God's method messy, because you insist on one purpose, and the deliberate design and culling of millions of species unconnected with that purpose. Stop dodging!

DAVID: How much the twigs came from some degree of automatic experimentation I see as a possibility.

This is a welcome concession, except that I have no idea what you mean by “automatic” experimentation. Assuming your God exists, either he would have deliberately experimented with each design, or he would have designed organisms to do their own experimenting. There’s hope yet! Do you now accept both these theories as possible?

Purpose

dhw: I don’t understand why you insist that he’s inefficient, just because you can’t conceive that at least one of your illogical theories might be wrong.

DAVID: I'm honest about my view of God. If you see only purpose, your muddled mind will understand.

dhw: If your God exists, I have absolutely no doubt that he would have had a purpose in designing life. I’m not questioning your honesty, but I am questioning why you ridicule him by limiting him to one purpose and making out that he devoted himself to messily and inefficiently designing species that had no connection with his purpose. And I question your assumptions about his nature, which frequently contradict your own views of his nature, e.g. he wants us to worship him, but he has no self-interest.

DAVID: First, my God did not produce us so we would worship Him. That worship might happen was quite a secondary thought.

How do you know? If you think he wants us to worship him, why do you think it couldn’t have been a prime purpose for his designing us?

DAVID: Yes, I limit the possibilities; we are here running the Earth. That is the true endpoint.

“Endpoint” does not have to mean one and only purpose! We can worship him and still run the Earth. What would have been his purpose anyway, to have us running the Earth?

DAVID: The bold is your usual distortion. As above, no intended lines were discarded, as you imply. God trimmed the bush of life to reach the present species on Earth.

How many more times? You insist that your God only wanted the present species, but intentionally designed every twig, the vast majority of which did NOT grow into the present species on Earth. You tell us that he “culled them” – they were dead ends. So why did he intentionally design dead ends? You know it makes no sense. So stop dodging.