Return to David's theory of evolution and theodicy;Plantinga (Evolution)

by David Turell , Saturday, March 16, 2024, 17:15 (41 days ago) @ dhw

https://salvomag.com/article/salvo68/if-god-why-evil

QUOTE: In his classic 1955 paper “Evil and Omnipotence,” J. L. Mackie claims that the presence of evil in the world (evil construed broadly enough to include any instance of suffering) shows that belief in God is irrational. After all, Mackie reasons, if God was all-good, he would want to stop all evil, and if he was all-powerful, he could stop it. But evil and suffering do exist, he continues; therefore, God doesn’t. To believe that both God and evil exist, then, is to believe incompatible claims.

dhw: I can hardly believe that anyone took this argument seriously. Did it never occur to J.L. Mackie that God might exist and might not be “all-good”, but that he might be indifferent to suffering, or might even want it to happen?

QUOTE: […] In response to Mackie, Plantinga explains that a morally perfect, omnipotent being can allow evil to exist if, in his perfect omniscience he has a morally sufficient reason for doing so —that is, a reason that would justify permitting the evil. Plantinga further suggests a possible reason: that God deemed human free will to be something of great value, even though the existence of free will makes possible the existence of evil. Thus, there is a third option: God might allow evil for good reasons.

dhw: Here we have the usual presumption that God is morally perfect, omniscient and omnipotent. As you point out later, his argument is confined to human choice, and does not explain the suffering caused by God-made bugs, or by natural disasters which God either organizes or allows to happen. But there is worse to come.

PLANTINGA: But why might God value free will? The Bible tells us that God is a real being who loves his human creatures and wants real relationships with them.

dhw: Plantinga seems to have forgotten that the Bible also tells us that God loves humans so much that he killed all but one family – including babes and toddlers – in a great flood, and gave orders that if people worshipped other gods, they should be killed and their cities destroyed.

QUOTE: This is why he endowed them with free will, even though free will entails the possibility that they might choose evil; relationships grounded in real love are not possible unless both parties enter into them willingly.

dhw: So although the omniscient God knew that evil would cause untold suffering to untold numbers of human beings, his all-good reason for giving folk the chance to commit evil was to make sure that people loved him willingly. You agree, and earlier you thought he also wanted us to recognize and worship him, but you still believe he is selfless!

DAVID: this article is on the point of human caused evil. it presents all of my points given in the past.

dhw: There is only one point made here: your selfless God created evil, and all the suffering it brings, to make sure that those who love him really love him.

DAVID: What it does not cover directly is the evil in bugs, but Plantinga's answer really does. What good bacteria do far outweigh the evil side effects and they are present for good reason.

dhw: Some bugs are present for good reasons, and others cause untold suffering, as your omniscient God knew they would, but your omnipotent God could not prevent the suffering although you tell us he did his best to do so. Do you agree with Plantinga that just like us humans, your selfless God needed to be loved, and he gave us free will so that he could be sure we really loved him?

All this muddled thinking, with its baseless assumptions about God’s nature, thoughts and motives, stems from one of the most insightful comments you have ever made about your own preconceptions: “I first choose a form of God I wish to believe in. The rest follows.” Clearly you are not alone.

Plantinga's key point: "Plantinga explains that a morally perfect, omnipotent being can allow evil to exist if, in his perfect omniscience he has a morally sufficient reason for doing so —that is, a reason that would justify permitting the evil. Plantinga further suggests a possible reason: that God deemed human free will to be something of great value, even though the existence of free will makes possible the existence of evil. Thus, there is a third option: God might allow evil for good reasons." Which comes back to this implication: God has reasons we cannot understand but must accept. Yes, both Plantinga and I accept the same God as a starting point.