Return to David's theory of evolution (Evolution)

by David Turell , Saturday, September 24, 2022, 17:47 (580 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: So when you say God is in full control of everything, but God may see things in a totally different viewpoint, what might “full control” mean if it doesn’t mean what you and I mean by “full control”?

It may or may not.

DAVID: We must use human terms as we describe God's possible thoughts or actions. What you can't seem to remember, I view God as a personage like no other person.

dhw: Since your God is an eternal, immaterial, sourceless, super-intelligent mind which can create universes and life, I don’t think many people would regard him as a person just like us. However, if he is a “personage”, then it is perfectly possible that he will have created “personal” attributes in us which reflect his own “personal” attributes.

DAVID: But not reflect as in mirrored. Similarities in some way.

dhw: So when you say you are sure he enjoys creating and is interested in his creations, why do you think his feelings of enjoyment and interest can’t be like ours, and can’t constitute a purpose for creating life? (Please don’t change the terms ”enjoy” and “interest”, as these are the words you have used.)

God may create and not need self-enjoyment or self-interest in what He has created.

DAVID: I have a guide in how I think about God. Your bold is my conclusion after years of study and reading over 100 books.

dhw: I am not doubting your reading capacity. I have asked you three bolded questions. Do you disagree that the only being qualified to tell us how to think about/imagine God is God himself, if he exists? Please answer.

We are discussing the human level! God won't tell us about Himself. There are philosophers who have given much thought to the problem and a good place to start one's thinking..

dhw: What retraction? Your question demands an all or nothing. I have offered you a theistic theory in which your God designs the basic units of life and endows them with the ability to do their own designing. The most obvious example of this autonomy is human beings, but you refuse to believe that he is capable of designing cells with the autonomous ability to make changes to themselves.

DAVID: The autonomy of humans is not an equivalent to cell functional abilities. You've used this before and it is equivalent to comparing horses to oranges.

dhw: And you’ve missed the point before, which is: if your God wanted to create autonomous humans, why do you insist that he could not possibly have wanted to create autonomous cells? The principle is the same: he did not WANT to control humans. So maybe he did not WANT to control cells.

I've missed nothing. I continue to view it as a very strained comparison. Show me a cell that has a mind.

DAVID: My analysis comes from the concept of an all-powerful God who knows exactly what He wants to do and does it. A marked concept from your very humanized God who changes course, has to experiment and loves to enjoy free-for-alls.

dhw:: In brief, your one and only theory concerning your God’s purpose and method makes no sense to you or to me, you agree that my own theories are perfectly logical, and your only two objections are that your “humanizations” of God are not as human as mine, and mine are wrong because nobody can know the truth.

DAVID: Stop declaring it makes no sense to me. It makes perfect sense to conclude God prefers to evolve everything as evidence shows. Are you blind to it?

dhw: Stop dodging! We both accept evolution as a fact, and if God exists of course it makes perfect sense that he wanted evolution. But that does not mean (a) that his one and only purpose was to design us and our food, or (b) that he designed every life form individually, or (c) that every life form and ecosystem that had no connection with us and our food was an “absolute requirement” for us and our food, and (d) according to you he did NOT evolve everything anyway, because you keep telling us that he designed Cambrian species that had no precursors. You also keep telling us you can’t find any reason for this illogical combination of beliefs, and you don’t have to, because you know it’s right and God has his reasons. The statement that your combined theories “make sense only to God” makes it perfectly clear that they do not make sense to you, so please stop dodging.

You are confused: what makes sense only to God are His reasons for choosing to evolve everything, nothing more. I have established the historical facts that support that theory. As for the Cambrian, a designer can jump steps whenever He wishes. As for God's purpose to produce humans, the presence of human is used to prove God in that natural evolution is not capable of producing us.