Return to David's theory of evolution (Evolution)

by dhw, Sunday, February 05, 2023, 11:06 (443 days ago) @ David Turell

Raup’s failure rate

DAVID: When will you accept a discussion that recognized my point that God created the history of evolution and therefore, He knew there would be Raup's 99.9% failure rate? His goal of humans happened, so He was successful. This is a view of a perfectly competent God. Evolution is messy, God is not, so there is no reason to stain him with the mess as you do.[/b] (dhw's bold. See later.)

dhw: If God exists, he would certainly have created life and a method for evolution. That does not mean that he individually created every single life form, problem, solution, development, strategy, lifestyle, natural wonder etc., for the whole future of life, or that his only aim was to design us and our food, or that he would make mistake after mistake in pursuit of his goal, or that he knew in advance that he would make mistake after mistake, or that he would be forced by conditions beyond his control to go on making mistakes until luck provided the right conditions for him to fulfil his goal.

DAVID: Once again you have immediately veered off my track by accepting a God who made evolution happen and then denying He did it in the now bolded sentence.

It is perfectly reasonable to accept that if God exists, he made evolution happen. It is not perfectly reasonable to assume any of your other beliefs as listed above - including his individual design of every life form etc. – when their combination leads to the conclusion that an all-powerful God made mistake after mistake, and even knew in advance that he would make a “mess” of evolution, as below, and yet still went ahead.

DAVID: Let's not have it both ways. If God produced evolution (as you agree), then we must look at the true history of evolution, which is a history of 99.9% failure to survive (Raup). Next logical step: God knew exactly the system He was using would create that failure rate. But!!!, He successfully had us appear.

Stop editing your own theory! The 99% failure of species to survive is a fact, but your theory now is that every failure to survive was the result of your God’s mistakes/failed experiments, because his only aim was to produce us, and the 99% turned out to be dead ends that did NOT lead to us. This makes him an incompetent designer. You also tell us that he knew in advance that his designs would prove to be mistakes on his part. This make him look pretty darn stupid as well as incompetent.

dhw: If evolution is messy, and your God invented evolution, then he is responsible for the mess! You said so yourself less than two months ago.

DAVID: Of course!!!

So why did you claim earlier (bolded above) that “there is no reason to stain him with the mess”?

dhw: However, if you really want to believe that he invented the system but did NOT create 99% worth of mistakes, you need look no further than my third explanation: he wanted and therefore designed a free-for-all (with the option of dabbling if he felt like it). No mistakes, no failed experiments. Total and endlessly fascinating success, as befits an all-powerful God.

DAVID: Back you go to a humanized God who gives up full control so He can go blameless for the known failures. A real God is always in full control.

Thank you for acknowledging that you are now blaming God for all his mistakes. I can only suggest to you that a REAL and all-powerful God would not make mistakes, and I would point out that none of my alternative theories involve any criticism at all of your God. And I keep asking you why you regard a fallible, incompetent designer, whom you blame for his mistakes, as being less human and more godlike than a designer who produces exactly what he wants to produce without making any mistakes. You have never answered.

Permian mass extinction

dhw: […] unsurprisingly, you have no idea why he would have chosen such a method. Maybe he didn’t.

DAVID: So now you are a mind reader for God. God made the history we are debating. Stop trying to change it to fit your preconceived prejudices for God's thinking. Why 'preconceived'? Constantly repeated as if engraved in stone. Reminds me of your objections to free will as you cannot shake loose of previous prejudices.

We are looking at the SAME history: 99% of species etc. had no connection with us and our food. Our dispute is over the interpretation of that history. Your objections to my alternative theistic interpretations do not change the fact that you have no idea why your God would have chosen a method ("constantly repeated as if engraved in stone") which entails him making mistakes for which you blame him and which make him look incompetent and stupid. “Preconceived prejudice” means fixed beliefs like yours, not a variety of possible explanations. As for free will, I have presented the case for and against without voting for either. You simply refuse to consider the case against. That is prejudice.