Return to David's theory of theodicy;Plantinga & Held (Evolution)

by David Turell , Thursday, April 11, 2024, 20:54 (18 days ago) @ dhw

Plantinga

DAVID: Remember, I didn't use the Bible to develop my theological thinking. You are fighting with Plantinga's total view. I've simply accepted his point that God can have a morally acceptable reason for evil. Just like my reasoning that we must have good bugs that might go bad.

dhw: How do you know that God has told us not to murder or rape, if you didn’t get that message from the Bible? Did God tell you so himself?

From the Ten Commandments, which I think Moses wrote himself.

dhw: As for Plantinga, God “can” have, is not the same as “we must have”. Plantinga’s point is that evil is morally justified IF God has a morally acceptable reason. He’s offered one which you and I reject, which leaves you and Plantinga with a totally vacuous statement. It’s just like saying the Holocaust is morally justified if Hitler had a morally acceptable reason. If you can’t think of one, then you can’t tell us that evil is justified!

I can pick one single piece of Plantinga without his example, because I feel the statement stands by itself by itself as reasonable.

Double standards

DAVID: Standard is same as 'taking a stand'. Circumstantial evidence 'beyond a reasonable' doubt allows a choice, a conviction. Some of us take single stands.

dhw: Taking a stand is not the problem. Double standards occur when you defend a stand based on an argument which you then contradict in order to reject a different stand, e.g. 1) You can’t believe a theory if it’s not mainstream...but 2) you can.

DAVID: That is your distorted example of a willingness to make judgements based on evidence.

dhw: Making judgements does not involve double standards! You simply haven’t understood the meaning of the term. I’ve defined it for you above. Simple example: you have rejected deism because it’s not mainstream. You call yourself a panentheist. Since when was panentheism mainstream? Most people have never even heard of it! Down with non-mainstream + up with non-mainstream = double standards.

I have known you all these years and suddenly I learn how you defend Agnosticism. What you label as double standards by your rigid rules, I accept as judgement calls of choice.

DAVID: I am capable of faith, no contradictions for me.

dhw: Of course you are capable of faith. And you have just contradicted yourself by telling us that your beliefs are rational, but they depend on faith which does not require rationality.

DAVID: Starting from evidence beyond a reasonable doubt! Evidence apparently you can't accept.

dhw: Stop dodging! I accept the logic of the design argument. I’m referring to those theories which you defend by saying God has his own reasons, though you can’t think of any and depend on irrational faith.

DAVID: Stop blaming me for not knowing God's rationales!

dhw: I don’t. I blame you for your irrational theories about God’s purpose, methods and nature, for claiming that they are rational but admitting that they are based on irrational faith, and for excusing all their illogicalities and contradictions on the grounds that you can’t know God’s reasons. The fact is that nobody can know your God’s purpose, methods or nature, and your faith in your theories is based purely on your wishful thinking: “I first choose a God I wish to believe in. The rest follows.”

That evolution ended by producing us is fact, open to interpretation. Your is, to avoid
God, we are not that special. Isn't that an example of your wishful thinking?

THEODICY

DAVID: Again, gut biome is pure good, unless bugs escape. Pure, good bugs don't exist, so perhaps God could not make them.

dhw: Some bugs/viruses are good and some are bad. An all-knowing God would know what he was creating. You wrote: “What is fair is to blame God for natural disasters”, which included “bugs causing diseases”. Are you now blaming your all-powerful God for his impotence?

DAVID: I believe everything living is here for a purpose.

dhw: And so what do you think was the purpose for which your God allowed such human evil as the Holocaust, and deliberately designed such evil as all the natural disasters (including bugs) for which you blame him? And please tell us why you blame him?

First, God did not allow the Holocaust. The Holocaust is not a part of theology. It is pure human history. As for the natural disasters, plate tectonics, vulcanism, etc. were necessary to form the hospitable Earth we have. We know how to identify quake zones and create proper building codes, as examples of protection our big God-given brains give us.