Return to David's theory of evolution and theodicy (Evolution)

by David Turell , Sunday, November 05, 2023, 17:53 (174 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Preposterous misunderstanding. The present 0.1% living represent the present population of humans and their food.

dhw: Correct.

DAVID:The brontosaurus had mouse-like mammals as neighbors which are on a direct line to us.

dhw: Correct. But apart from birds, there are no direct descendants from the dinosaurs, just as there are no direct descendants from 99.9% of species that ever lived (if Raup’s figures are correct).

DAVID: You know evolution is fan-shaped of developing lines in related ecosystems.

dhw: Your bush has now become a fan, but the same principle applies: the developing lines diverge from the base of the fan, and 99.9% percent of them do not lead to us or our food. Ecosystems come and go, but that does not alter the fact that 99.9% of the lines do not lead directly to us and our food.

Yes, the lines do lead to food: brontosaurus equals chickens.

DAVID: All that are left alive now are (0.1%) lines of our food and humans.

dhw: Correct. Our evolution (plus) food represents 0.1% of life forms that ever lived. We are NOT directly descended from the other 99.9%.

The 99.9% are not direct or indirect lines, they are cumulative extinctions.

DAVID: We have the power to eat anything that is alive. For example we eat lion meat.

dhw: Totally irrelevant to your claim that “the 99.9% are the ancient but direct ancestors of Humans plus food.” Please withdraw it.

Why? It is a reasonable example.

DAVID: Note today's entries on vegetation and ecosystems and how vital it is for us to maintain them.

dhw: According to you and Raup, current vegetation and ecosystems represent 0.1% of life forms that ever lived, the other 99.9% having had to be “culled”. This has nothing to do with the vital need for humans to maintain the current ecosystems that feed them!

DAVID: Your dodge is to not understand the current human food supply is not globally adequate.

My reply to that entry was:
dhw: climate change and alien plant invasion are largely caused by human activity, and we are rapidly destroying the very resources that provide us with our food. These studies are indeed of vital importance for our future, and this is one area of our discussions on which we are in complete agreement.
What have I dodged?

Your humans plus food is said in derision.

Theodicy

dhw: […] theodicy asks how a God who chooses a method which produces evil can possibly be all-good, and I have asked how a first-cause God, who has no choice but to produce a system which produces the evil he hates, can be all-powerful?

DAVID: An all-powerful God made the universe, created life, and had to do it with side effects making evil.

dhw: When discussing your theories of evolution, you wrote “not had to design and cull!! God is not forced to do anything.” Now your first-cause, all-powerful God “had to” create a system which involved producing evil. I’m not complaining. I merely ask how he can be forced to create out of himself a system which will produce evil (which you say he hates) and yet be considered all-powerful and all good.

It is the only system that works.

Theodicy: the ‘good’ view of bacteria

DAVID: The good God gave us far outweighs the evil side effect. Are you happy to be living??

dhw: War, murder, rape etc. exist. What percentage of reality they form is irrelevant to the question why and how a first-cause God can knowingly create a system that will produce such evil and yet be called all-good.
The fact that I am happy to be living does not explain how an all-good God can produce a system that he knows will lead to evil,

DAVID: God gave you your life. Do you wish he would take it away?

dhw: Of course not.

DAVID: The presence of evil is the price you pay. Eden does not, cannot exist.

dhw: I accept the presence/price of evil. But I’m asking you the question asked by theodicy: how can the presence of evil - which you say he hates and which stems from the system your first cause God (if he exists) chose to use in creating life out of himself - fit in with the theory that he is all-powerful and all-good?

Constant answer: Evil is a byproduct of good. We accept proportionality.