Return to David's theory of evolution (Evolution)

by dhw, Saturday, December 24, 2022, 09:38 (488 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: […] if a tropical forest turns into a desert because of an uncontrolled change in climate patterns, what role did he play in changing the tropical forest environment into a desert environment?

DAVID: None. The Earth runs its own weather patterns.
And:
DAVID: I believe local climate is not something God dabbles with.

dhw: It seems pretty clear to me that forest changing to desert, or desert to forest, would be precisely the kind of local environmental change created by a local climate change that would require or allow the adaptations and innovations which lead to new species. Your God therefore has to respond to changes that are beyond his control.

DAVID: Now you have jumped to permanent local changes of such a magnitude God might have had a role in creating. I thought we were discussing local weather and local climate. I can point to ice ages where God may have had a role.

I have not jumped. I gave you the example of desert to forest right from the start, you agreed that your God would have played no role in the change, and you agreed that species appear locally and that your God continued “speciation which responds with forms adapted to new conditions.”(My bold). If your God responds to new conditions which he did not control, he can hardly be said to have been in tight control of evolution.

dhw: You have now agreed that your God does not control local climates, that local climates may lead to environmental changes, and that speciation is local.

DAVID: As above, the discussion has levels. Daily or over decades.

Do you really think that forests turn to deserts or vice versa because of one sunny/rainy day?

DAVID: God will create new species to fit new conditions. Take Chixculub as an example.

That is what I keep telling you! You agree that species may be local (e.g. when forests turn into deserts or vice versa), and he has no control over such local changes.(You gave the example of tigers in Asia, not Africa, and lions in Africa, not Asia – though actually that’s not strictly the case.) Of course there are also global changes, but I am following your own belief that some speciation took place locally as his response to conditions which he did not control. Chixculub could fit in with your theory that the experiment with dinosaurs was a "failure", so he got rid of them. Or it could be another example of chance environmental changes beyond his control.

The immensity of the universe

dhw: […] We’ll simply stick to your belief that your God messed up the evolution of humans with all his failed experiments, although eventually he got there in spite of all his mistakes.

DAVID: Never His mistakes. Ecosystems for food disappear when needs are over and evolution moves to another next stage. You consantly ignore everyone eats, so you can denigrate God's actions.

dhw: I can’t believe you really want to start this discussion all over again. It is YOU who called the dead ends your God’s “mistakes”, “failed experiments”, “messy”. You summed it all up: “He is responsible for all the messy aspects of evolution. Yes, He is. The whole of evolution is a messy process of successes and failures.” His successes in your theory were those lines of evolution that led to us and our food, and the failures were all the dead ends.

DAVID: Dead ends no longer required to help in feeding. It is your observation God took a cumbersome way to produced us, by evolution rather than directly. The entire discussion supports that observation. And it can now end. God does it His way.

Let’s use your vocabulary. The entire discussion supports your observation that your God is responsible for all the “mistakes, “failed experiments”, and “messy aspects” of evolution.