Return to David's theory of evolution, purpose & theodicy (Evolution)

by dhw, Monday, May 20, 2024, 09:25 (111 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Your invented contradictions exist because you refuse to accept God's attributes as I describe them. Tell your strict attributes or do they wander all over the place.

I gave you a list of contradictions, which of course you ignored.

dhw: ...I do not impose any “strict” attributes on him. I don’t even know if he exists, and so I only offer alternative possibilities.

DAVID: I have been taught by a world-famous philosopher of religion, a ranking theologian. I am proud to have taken the time to learn this approach when deciding to leave agnosticism. Your alternatives are colored by your own humanism with no theological training.

Has Adler taught you that your God’s use of evolution is messy, cumbersome and inefficient? Stop dodging.

DAVID: Because you cannot think like a theologian what I present sounds like nonsense to you.

A direct contradiction is nonsense, I’ve given you a list. Two repetitions will be enough: 1) you think he might have created us so that we can recognize and worship him. But he has no self-interest. 2) He probably has thought patterns and emotions like ours, but “He has some sort of personality, certainly not human in any sense.” Please stop telling us that all theologians think as illogically as you.

DAVID: The point of my research was to be sure I knew how to approach the subject of God's personality. I have been given strict attributes, contrary to your approach above, without any guidelines. It is no wonder you do not follow my reasoning.

Please tell us the strict attributes you have been given. Is one of them that he is selfless although it is possible that he wants us to recognize and worship him?

Evolution and Raup

DAVID: You don't see believers are satisfied with God has His own morally sufficient reasons. It is you questioning God, not me. Your God must have human reasoning. Mine doesn't.

dhw: Nothing to do with “morally sufficient reasons”, which is your get-out for avoiding the theodicy problem. I am not questioning God – I am questioning your theory that your omnipotent God had only one purpose but messily and inefficiently proceeded to design and cull 99.9 out of 100 species that had no relevance to his purpose. Stop dodging!

DAVID: I believe God evolved us by the historical method we all know. Live with it.

I have no problem with the theory that God, if he exists, evolved us in one way or another, just as he evolved every other life form in one way or another. The problem is the illogical, messy, cumbersome, inefficient combination of purpose and method you impose on him.

DAVID: How can I answer? I have imposed God upon the history of evolution as its creator. As result He inherits the unwieldy process.

dhw: Your God is first cause. How can he inherit anything? As first cause he would have INVENTED the process!

DAVID: Exactly!!

dhw: So why did you say he “inherited” it, as if he had been forced to use a method that had been thrust upon him?

DAVID: I thrust the method on him, so He 'inherits' it. As above.

This is your most revolutionary theory ever. You were there before God and made him design and cull all those 99.9 species irrelevant to his purpose. Tell that to your theologians.

Humanization

DAVID: God creates but not with any self-motive, a strict guideline of theological thought.

dhw: Stop hiding behind vague generalizations. One example: does theological thought reject the theory that God wants to be recognized and worshipped?

DAVID: No, so? Not vague generalizations, applied self-teaching.

dhw: Does all “theological thought” teach you that your God might not enjoy creating, might not be interested in you, might not love you, might indulge in messy, inefficient design, probably has thought patterns and emotions like ours but definitely doesn’t have thought patterns and emotions like ours, is all good but is to blame for bad bugs? Please answer yes or no.

DAVID: The bugs are His, good and bad.

Does all “theological” thought teach you all the above? Please answer yes or no.

DAVID (on the Buddhism thread): Your human personality forces itself into all your theories about God. You must learn to separate yourself.

dhw: I quote you: “I first choose a form of God I wish to believe in. The rest follows.” This is a prime example of an “I” forcing itself into all its theories about God, and explains many of the contradictions that plague those theories. Of course all our arguments and beliefs stem from our “selves”, but it so happens that my “self” has no fixed beliefs and can only present alternative explanations for what I see as reality. You accept that they are all logical, and your only objection is that they entail thought patterns or emotions like ours, although your God probably has thought patterns and emotions like ours.

DAVID: How do you know God probably has 'thought patterns and emotions like ours.'? We have no solid evidence, do we?

I don’t know. I'm quoting you. The original quote is in Bregenz, but you have not denied it until now, and you confirmed two of your earlier ideas in a December post: “That God would be interested in His creations is reasonable as are our logical thought patterns similar to God’s.” Please stop dodging.