Return to David's theory of evolution and theodicy (Evolution)

by dhw, Thursday, June 22, 2023, 07:48 (518 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Do you believe some bacteria and some viruses were programmed to kill us, or did your God give them the freedom to do so?

DAVID: Definitely no. […]

dhw: […] I’m not sure what your “no” refers to. Your all-knowing God knew the bugs would kill us. If he didn’t programme them to do so, he must have left them free to do so.

DAVID: The no meant God did not program them specifically to kill us. They have the freedom to attack us.

Thank you. Earlier this week, you wrote: “As for bacteria and viruses with free will, it doesn’t exist.” Now we have your God creating bacteria, viruses and humans, giving them the freedom to kill us, knowing that some of them will do so, but as there is more good than evil, we should ignore the problem of theodicy!

DAVID: What you want is a Garden of Eden now. You can't have it. You must live with tradeoffs that necessarily exist. I lead a happy life. I guess you don't.

dhw: I’m afraid the fact that you lead a happy life (and so do I) does not explain why an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good God would create evil. Stop dodging.

dhw: […] your all-knowing, all-powerful God would only create what he wanted to create, and therefore he wanted to create evil.

DAVID: So a lack of knowledge exonerates your God from all the evils He creates? Preposterous.

dhw: If it is preposterous to “exonerate” him, and he creates the evils, you are blaming him for creating the evils.

DAVID: You admit your God created evils.

Once more: Evil exists, and we are trying to solve the problem of why a supposedly all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful God, the Creator of all things, would have created it. Your theory is that he wanted it, is fully to blame for it, but as it’s only a minor blip (you even argue later that 10 million cancer victims and 89 million refugees from human evil do not justify the epithet “rampant”), we shouldn’t even think about it. I offer alternatives, which include the proposal that he didn’t know initially what damage his experiments, inventions and discoveries might do (the Walter Raleigh “syndrome”). But you insist that he is 100% guilty. Maybe you’re right. But that conflicts with the view that your God is all-good.

DAVID: Your God and my God produced the same system of evolution.

dhw: In none of my theories do my versions of God produce the same system as yours: you have him deliberately designing 99 out of 100 species that are irrelevant to his one and only purpose. This is never the case in any of my alternatives.

DAVID: I don't see your conclusion as valid. Both of our Gods created the same evolitionary process with a 99.9% loss rate.

dhw: In your interpretation, the 99.9% were mistakes (which once you even called "failed experiments"), because they had nothing to do with your God’s one and only purpose – hence your description of his system as messy, cumbersome and inefficient. In mine, they were successful experiments as he tried out new ideas, or watched his invention produce its own new ideas. […]

DAVID: A non-answer as usual. Your God produced the same 99.9% loss in evolution, didn't He.

It’s a complete answer! You say they were mistakes, and I say they were successful experiments by himself or by his inventions! The next exchange illustrates the point:

Fungal spore defense

DAVID: The amazing battles continue. It is still a dog-eat-dog world with each side capable of adapting.

dhw: This sums up the world of good and evil. Your God does not intervene. So maybe this free-for-all battle for survival, with its vast range of variations, adaptations, innovations, comings and goings, goods and bads, was his purpose right from the start.

DAVID: I think so.

Thank you for suddenly agreeing that your God’s purpose might have been a free-for-all battle for survival. It makes far more sense than your previous belief that his purpose was to create humans and therefore he created 99 out of 100 life forms that had no connection with humans. Now perhaps you might tell us why you think your all-purposeful God might have wanted to create a free-for-all battle for survival.