More miscellany (Evolution)

by dhw, Tuesday, June 25, 2024, 11:45 (115 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I don't follow religion's mantras about God.

dhw: So you do not think about God the same way as millions of theologists do and have done. [..] And why is it OK for you to oppose mainstream theology but not for me? Back you go to your double standards.

DAVID: Nothing double about following Adler's instructions in theology.

Stop blaming Adler. You reject the views of millions of theologists, and then have the cheek to dismiss my theories because they do not conform to the views of theologists. Double standards.

DAVID: I am using Adler, a philosopher of religion, a different level of theologian, and theological thought.

dhw: Please stop pretending that YOUR theology is the only “true” one. I am not arguing with Adler but with you.

DAVID: I am following Adler's instructions. My theology is 'true' for me.

That’s more like it. You are of course free to choose any theory you like, but please stop making such silly remarks as: “You don’t know how to think about God is true theological ways” when what you mean is I don’t know how to think about God in the illogical, self-contradictory, and even mocking way (“imperfect”, “inefficient” designer) you think about him.

dhw: We are not discussing Adler’s “proof” that God exists. You have said he doesn't cover your illogical theory of imperfect, inefficient evolution, and you have contradicted his "unknowability" argument with your pretended knowledge (miraculously reversed today) that your God can't possibly have any human attributes. Stop hiding behind him.

DAVID: Adler's proof, using Darwin theory, says God made us!! I am right to use him.

If God exists, then he “made” everything – either directly or indirectly. That is not the subject of our discussions.

Intelligence (and ants)

dhw: All decision-making is based on receiving information in whatever form, processing it, and finding a way to use it. Within a community, communication is another essential feature. Bearing these attributes in mind, do you agree that ants are intelligent?

DAVID: To a small degree.

dhw: So you accept that insects have a degree of autonomous intelligence. The question then becomes one of degree. Where do you draw the line?

DAVID: I said a small degree.

How small is small? Would you agree that today’s article on chimp self-medication denotes autonomous intelligence?

God’s “challenge”

dhw: ...And what might have been his purpose for challenging us?

DAVID: We were given the brains for the challenges.

Yes, that is your theory, and I am asking WHY you think your God deliberately created all these forms of suffering in order to challenge us. Did he do so, for instance, because he was curious to see how clever we might become? Or because he enjoys watching us suffer? Or was he so powerless that he couldn’t prevent all the suffering and hoped we would be cleverer than him and find ways of ending it?

Giraffes

QUOTE: Giraffes, it turns out, have solved a problem that kills millions of people every year: high blood pressure.

DAVID: It is an example of extreme adaptability requiring many new mutations to solve complex alterations. […] I would suggest these protective mechanisms are designed.

dhw:[…]. I suggest that none of these fascinating facts are “new mutations”, but are adaptations which were brought about by new requirements. In terms of Shapiro’s theory, this means the different cell communities within the body cooperate intelligently in making the necessary changes. I googled the ancestry:

QUOTE: “Against the odds, over a period of 8 million years the genetic material in small gazelle-like Canthumerycids transformed by natural selection into modern long-legged, long-necked giraffes, Giraffa camelopardalis.”

dhw: Natural selection doesn’t explain the process, but Shapiro’s theory certainly does, whether or not your God designed the ability of cells to respond to new requirements.

DAVID: I'm sure God did it directly.

Do you mean that God created the giraffe “de novo”, without any ancestors?

Chimps self-medicate

QUOTE: John Arnason, a phytochemist and ethnopharmacology expert at the University of Ottawa, thinks “nonhuman primates may have used the same trial and observation methods humans have used to find effective medicines, then passed on the information to their offspring.'”

DAVID: I agree with Arnason above: the chimps used trial and error to find these solutions to illnesses and wound care.

Another wonderful example of the sort of animal intelligence we have inherited. I would suggest that the same process applies to most animal strategies for survival. Trial and error. or accidental discoveries – anything that is beneficial will be passed on to future generations.

Loss of wolves damages trees

DAVID: I've introduced this problem before, but a repeat now and then is keeps us reminded that ecosystems are vital. It is a world-wide problem from mistaken human activity.

A point on which you and I are in total agreement.