Return to David's theory of evolution, purpose & theodicy (Evolution)

by David Turell , Saturday, May 11, 2024, 18:45 (194 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: You always use the word “need”, and I keep telling you that want and need are not the same thing. We need food, and without it, we'll die. I do not for one moment imagine your God saying he can’t go on without my worshipping him. I asked why you thought he specially created us? YOU suggested that he wanted recognition and worship. So why are you trying to blame me for your own answer to my question? He has no self-interest is just as much a guess as he wants us to worship him. So you are arguing against yourself, not me.

I have very specific beliefs, and you are correct we don't know, but I see God as selfless despite the guesses I made for you.

DAVID: We don't know what God wants. Leave it at that.

dhw: Thank you for using the word want.

DAVID: Get it through your head! See above for my approach to a selfless God. My answers to your completely direct questions are what raise conflict in your mind. My polite guesses aren't written in stone. He may appreciate our interest in Him, but they are of no consequence to Him. Plese in your thought remove any human trace, and then I might make sense to you.

dhw: What is the point of your polite guesses if you now tell us that you know they are totally wrong? Why should I “remove any human trace” after you have agreed that he probably has thought patterns and emotions like ours? Why would a purposeful God want to create us in the first place if what we did was of no interest or consequence to him?

Right!! We don't know the true answers to any of that.

DAVID: I don't contradict. You distort the conclusions.

dhw: I’ve given you whole lists of contradictions, including those earlier in this post, and as I wrote yesterday: "Your whole messed-up “theology” is encapsulated by your two statements that he probably has thought patterns and emotions like ours, but he is certainly not human in any sense. And the endless contradictions stem from your self-confessed approach to all matters concerning your God’s purpose, method and nature: ”I first choose a God I wish to believe in. The rest follows.”

DAVID: I follow the all-everything God of the monotheistic religions, warts and all.

dhw: On the “More miscellany" thread, you dismissed my comment that unpredictability was more interesting than a puppet show, because “this is no recognizable form of theism.” I listed some of your theories (boredom, inefficiency, might-not-want to be worshipped etc.) that have no place in the monotheistic religions you claim to follow “warts and all"...

DAVID: More of your discontinuous criticisms. I make my own considered theism.

dhw: So you follow the all-everything God of the monotheistic religions, warts and all, but you don’t, because you pride yourself on making your own theism.

On the contrary, I start with the God I described, and my critical thoughts about God logically follow. Evolution is not a direct way to create all living organisms.

DAVID: Of course Raup never mentions God. I put God into action running evolution and you go nuts over Raup's statistics. It is the same inefficient evolution with or without God!!!

dhw: It’s only inefficient if you believe (a) that your God controlled it, and (b) that he messed up the way in which he fulfilled the purpose you impose on him! If his purpose was to create an interesting and varied free-for-all, he got precisely what he wanted. If he wanted to experiment, make discoveries, enjoy trying new ideas, he got what he wanted. And if there is no God, there are no purposes other than those we and our fellow creatures create for ourselves (mainly survival). And please don’t moan that my response “humanizes” God. There is no reason whatsoever to assume that your God does not have thought patterns and emotions like ours. Indeed you wrote that he probably does.

I won't moan about your humanized God you have aptly described. We do not know what God, having produced us, wants or needs from us. Briefly, does God have motives of any sort? We humans can invent all sorts of possibilities like you invent for your humanized guy. God may have none like my selfless guy.