Return to David's theory of theodicy;Plantinga & Held (Evolution)

by David Turell , Monday, March 25, 2024, 17:38 (241 days ago) @ dhw

dhw […] You support Plantinga’s theory that your God “allowed” evil to happen because he wanted us to love him of our own free will. Being omniscient he knew what would happen. The slaughter of 6 million Jews was not “despite God” if he knew it would happen and made no attempt to stop it ![…]. It is you who bend your God to fit your belief that he is selfless (and yet wants to be loved), loves us (you accept Pantinga’s theology) and yet is prepared to see us slaughter 6 million Jews so that he can be sure he is loved of our own free will, is all-good and yet designs viruses that will kill us,... Please explain to me in your own words why you think a God who loves us and is selfless would be happy to allow 6 million of us to be slaughtered in order to ensure that we love him of our own free will?

dhw: You have not answered.

DAVID: I did answer your criticism by calling it criticism of God. Humans caused the Holocaust through God-given free-will and ended it through the same free-will. God has left us responsible for ourselves, as I've previously noted. It is our brains that allow us to cure illness, develop early warning systems for tornados and Earthquakes, etc.

dhw: My criticism is not of God but of Plantinga’s theology, which you accept although it contradicts your own beliefs. You say God is selfless. Plantinga’s only point is that God wants us to love him. How can that be called selfless? ... Plantinga says the only way God can be sure we really love him is to give us free will, which being omniscient he knows will cause huge suffering as it will allow evil. For Plantinga’s God, the slaughter of 6 million Jews (many of whom would certainly have loved him) is worth allowing if it means some humans will love him the way he wants to be loved. How does this fit in with Plantinga’s stated belief – which you share – that God loves us? How does he show that love for us if, like the Deist God you rejected a few days ago – he creates us and then abandons even those who love him of their own free will?

You have totally ignored my point. The Holocaust was forged by humans and ended by humans. We are fully in charge of ourselves. God is here, but we are in charge of ourselves. God now acts at the individual level in small strokes. He gave the Earth with all its bountiful resources for us to use and the brains to know how. That is God's contract with us. It is up to each individual to form a response. Yours is a sort of rejection, mine acceptance.

Current Jewish theology

QUOTE from Rabbi Shai Held:
A traditional rabbinic story imagines that when God was about to create Adam, the angels split into factions and began to argue. “Kindness said, ‘Let him be created, since he will perform acts of lovingkindness’; Truth said, ‘Let him not be created, since he is all lies.’” How does God respond to the debate? “God took truth and cast it to the earth.” Faced with a choice between love and other competing values, God embraces the former and rebuffs the latter. God risks a lot, and puts up with a lot, all in the name of love—both the love God has for us and the love God hopes that we will embody and bring into the world."

DAVID (re the OT): Ancient primitive Jews perhaps needed such a tough God to keep them in line. That guy is not necessary now.

dhw: ... One Jewish rabbi narrates a little allegory, and pretends he knows exactly what his God is thinking and feeling. He has no more knowledge of God than you, me or Plantinga![…]. Shai Held tells us that God chooses love and rejects evil. So why in hell’s name did he create the possibility of evil in the first place? You have summed it up in your comment (bolded). Humans can change the image of God as they see fit. You exemplify the approach: “I first choose a form of God I wish to believe in. The rest follows.” You, Plantinga and Held are ... just as ignorant of the truth as I am.

DAVID: We like our 'truth' better than yours.

dhw: I don't offer any "truth"! And what you believe is a theory which begins with what you wish, and only allows what you wish. So once again, please tell me how a God who knowingly allows evil in order to ensure that he is loved (Plantinga) can be called “selfless”, and how a God who loves us and hopes that we will embody love (Held) can create a situation which he knows will result in the slaughter of 6 million, including those who love him. Is this evil really made good by the fact that humans ended it? And the Holocaust is just one of the countless horrors. But I’m not criticizing your God. I’m pointing out the absurdity of your view of what constitutes love, selflessness, and justification for evil. I seem to remember you telling us that your mentor Adler says we cannot know whether God loves us or not. But you sway in whatever theological wind is blowing, so long as you think it might blow you towards the fulfilment of your wishes.

I am not as wishy-washy as you pretend. I have a firm belief in a purposeful God, knowing exactly what He wishes and does it. I posted an answer above to all your repetitious points. You don't understand that each of us has a personal relationship with God. That what makes a deism-like appearance, not that. Many millions of personal relationships persist, evaluating the role of your arguments as quite secondary to a final descision for faith.