Return to David's theory of evolution (Evolution)

by David Turell , Monday, January 09, 2023, 17:44 (682 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: So if a tropical forest turns into a desert because of an uncontrolled change in climate patterns, what role did he play in changing the tropical forest environment into a desert environment?

DAVID: None. The Earth runs its own weather patterns.
And:
DAVID: I believe local climate is not something God dabbles with.

dhw: We had finally sorted out the messy illogicalities of your original theory, and now you want to start all over again!

You do not recognize how you stretch my points. For example, the Saraha desert appeared naturally under Earth's own climate patterns. God provided the Camal design to fit.

DAVID: God, as a master designer, outfitted all new species with the abilities to handle whatever they needed to as conditions changed. When they fell to Raup's 'bad luck' they were failures, in the sense they do not act as a stage to advance complexity.

dhw: According to you, your God’s one and only purpose was to produce sapiens and our food. In your theory, the dead ends were only failures because they did not act as stages on the way to achieving the goal you insist on. If he had not started out with that goal (as in the other two theories I have offered you), they would not have been “failures” (see below)! And if they failed because of “bad luck”, those which survived must have failed because they were lucky, so God depended on luck (a) for conditions that would suit his purpose, and (b) for the survival of life forms that he could work on under the new conditions in order to achieve his purpose.

DAVID: What I am doing is agreeing with you God chose a round-about way to produce humans. And it worked! It seems God knows/knew what He was doing, and never gave thought to what you see as problems.

Today, I will add: Bad luck for animals or plants is never bad luck for God. He will design to fit all needs, as necessary.

dhw: I have no idea what he thought, but according to you, his method involved countless mistakes, failed experiments, wrong choices and a thoroughly messy way of achieving his aim. Those were all your terms, not mine!

Just leave the point alone. We agreed He used a messy method, but He achieved His goal, us.

DAVID: Evolution, as a precise definition consists of moving from one failed experiment to another until a successful one moves to a new level of complexity.

dhw: It’s not a matter of complexity, but of a fixed goal! The experiments are only failures if there is a goal.

All evolution involved failures on the way to a goal. Even Darwin agrees: Survival of the fittest simply means the unfit fail.

dhw:If he experiments in order to find out what might happen if he does xyz, there is no failure. If he creates a free-for-all, again there is no failure. And the definition of evolution consists of life forms descending from earlier life forms. Please note: two days ago you told us “God was not experimenting”, and in this post you tell us once again that the evolution he designed entails failed experiments.

DAVID: Evolution of life is moving from simple to complex. The most complex result, the human brain is here, despite the messy arrangement. God chose to do it this way, despite your objections. I am sure He knew what He was doing. Many years ago, there was an admonition: "keep it simple, stupid". I guess you live by it. God doesn't. He evolves all His different levels of creation, universe from Big Bang, Milky Way gobbling up little galaxies, the Earth from rocks to life, life from Asgard Archaea to us. A definite pattern!

dhw: I am not denying evolution! You have just accepted the theory that your God experimented in order to achieve his one and only goal (us and our food), the vast majority of his experiments were failures, mistakes, wrong choices etc., and he invented the whole system which you regard as messy. What are you complaining about? I have accepted your experimentation theory as one possible, logical explanation of the mess.

Yes, the failed branches are experiments in survival, and many were good designs in Raup's view, succumbing only to 'bad luck' events. God does not control every little event in reality, only those that need to be controlled. And I'll repeat, God can design around or past any seeming obstacle.