Return to David's theory of evolution, purpose & theodicy (Evolution)

by dhw, Sunday, March 31, 2024, 12:43 (235 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Raup describes evolution as a result of extinctions, and they result in a purely statistical 99.9% loss of forms on the way. End of story.

dhw: Thank you. It seems that we both accept his statistics, and that is the end of his part in our story. So there is no point in telling me that I “distort” his analysis when I challenge your absurdly illogical theory that in order to design us and our food (his only purpose) God messily and inefficiently designed 99.9 out of 100 species that had no connection with his purpose. Raup’s generally accepted statistics can be interpreted even theistically in far less insulting ways.

DAVID: The bold is your now cookbook discussion of the reality of evolution. Everything produced through lines of evolution are necessarily here for humans to use.

It is not reality that your God’s only purpose was us, or that he specially designed every species that ever lived, and it is certainly not reality that every species that ever lived was necessary for us to exist and to use. Listen to yourself:

dhw: Do you believe that we and our food are directly descended from 99.9% of all creatures that ever lived?

DAVID: No. From the 0.1% surviving.

DAVID: I applied the term Blackard to your invention of God from Raup's statistics. Don't blame me for your distortion.

dhw: What distortion? It is you who describe your God as messy, cumbersome and inefficient. I offer alternatives such as experimentation, enjoyment of learning, discovery and creation. How does that make him a “Blackard”?

DAVID: Not a Blackard in this constant humanizing attempt of yours, describing a God who experiments, enjoys learning, and discovers! An Edison-like God, who constantly attempts trial runs until He gets it right! That is some weird God!

A Blackard (blackguard) is a rogue. Maybe trial runs, or maybe having new ideas as he goes along (hence our late arrival), or maybe dabbling as he allows his invention free rein, or maybe simply watching his invention produce us. Is this any weirder than deliberately designing and then killing off 99.9 out of 100 species irrelevant to his one and only purpose?

DAVID: A neutral theology is what I try to follow based on my concept of God's personality.

dhw: I can’t see any “neutrality” in your concept of God as a messy, cumbersome and inefficient designer. Nor is it neutral to assume that your God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good. Nor is it neutral if you tell us with great authority that he doesn’t need love, that he doesn’t experiment, that he is selfless, that although he enjoys creating he couldn’t possibly create things for his own enjoyment. Nor is it neutral to “trust God” although you cannot find a single reason why he allows human evil, while you even blame him for “natural” evils like bad bugs.

DAVID: Welcome to faith and trust. I take from theologian presentations what fits my concepts developed from reading Adler's books and Karen Anderson's "A History of God", clearly describing Hebrew, Christian and Muslim forms of God as they evolved. Not a glimmer of your contrived versions.

Sorry, but you said your approach was neutral. How can all the above be called neural, and how can you call it neutral if it is based on YOUR concept???

Darwinism and God

dhw: The starting point of this discussion was your statement that “Two alternatives exist: God or nature”. We are not discussing the content of articles..[…]

DAVID: […] In the current state of scientific fact, there is not much logically left of Darwin except a form of common descent without natural selection.

dhw:[…] our discussion is not on what is left of Darwin’s theory, so stop dodging. Millions of people, including Darwin, the Pope, the Rev. Charles Kingsley and little old me, have accepted Darwin’s theory but also believe in God or in the possibility of God. Your statement that the two are alternatives is just plain wrong. Stop dodging.

DAVID: Not through the eyes of ID!! With them and I join them, it is either/or. They have declared Darwin theory dead. God designed it.

dhw: Then that should be your statement: ID-ers dismiss Darwinism and claim that Darwinism and God are incompatible. Meanwhile, lots of other people believe that Darwinism is valid and that it is perfectly compatible with God. You do not have the authority to tell them that they are wrong.

DAVID: I can't help if they are uneducated to the factual material that proves the points.

There is no factual material to prove that Darwinism and God are incompatible. And I object to your insinuation that I, the Pope, and millions of other people are “uneducated” if we support Darwin’s explicit statement that his theory does not exclude God