More miscellany Parts One & Two (Evolution)

by David Turell , Monday, October 07, 2024, 20:51 (45 days ago) @ dhw

Free-for-all

dhw:[…] if the instructions don’t work, that can only be the fault of the instructor. What you call “mistakes” will only be the fault of the cells if they have the freedom to act independently of any instructions

DAVID: They do as mistakes in action.

dhw: You can’t make a mistake without some sort of action. Whatever “mistakes” cells make is clearly their own fault if they act autonomously.

DAVID: That is what happens.

dhw: Thank you for your agreement that cells act autonomously. As I have noted before, you are beginning to accept Shapiro’s theory concerning the autonomous intelligence of cells.

dhw: If they follow your God’s instructions, any mistakes are his. Exit your perfect, omnipotent, omniscient God.

DAVID: The fault in reasoning is yours. The proteins make the mistakes trying to follow the instructions!!!

dhw: I don’t like this focus on proteins, since these are just one component of the cell and have to cooperate with other parts.

A cell is all proteins in one form or another. The problem is folding in correctly.Protins are fee to do that.

dhw: Let’s make the discussion more concrete: cancer is caused by abnormalities in the cell. Are you telling us that the cancerous cells try but fail to obey your God, or are you telling us that the cancerous cells find their own means of survival and expansion? Why are they so often successful if they are trying but failing to obey your God’s instructions?

They use cell DNA instructions for their own use and do it well, anti-God in action.

dhw: You support this “exit” with your insistence that your God was somehow forced into creating an imperfect system which he even tried to correct but now relies on the help of humans to do what he couldn’t do.

DAVID: The 'exit' is yours. God knew in His omniscience the ONLY system that could work. It does work. We are here and helping.

dhw: In his omniscience he knew that he was not omnipotent, was incapable of designing a Garden of Eden, and was incapable of correcting rebellious cells but hoped that we could help him out, although he has no wish for us to help him out or to have his mistakes corrected.(He has no wishes.)

No, He doesn't. Life means creating a working system. The workings of the universe are simple is comparison.

Early galaxies

DAVID: the more we see, the more we learn and have to modify theories and models. Not at all surprising. In a fast-moving areas of study like this one theories have to be liquid, not fixed. We still do not know why the universe has to be as it is. I assume it is all purposeful.

dhw: A lovely comment. But if theories have to be liquid, may I suggest that you unfix your theory that the universe “has to be” as it is, and you qualify your assumption that it is all purposeful?

DAVID: Why don't you see the obvious purpose in action?

dhw: “We still don’t know why the universe has to be as it is”, but there is an “obvious purpose”. Please tell us the obvious purpose – which we still can’t see - of every single star, planet, black hole, galaxy, extant and extinct, known and unknown, that has ever existed.

DAVID: We don't know those answers today.

dhw: You just asked why I couldn’t see the obvious purpose, and now you agree that there is no obvious purpose for me to see. It is very helpful of you to demolish your own viewpoints for me. Thank you.

That we have no current knowledge does not mean we can't see current purpose. We are here.

Bird parasites

DAVID: The degree of thought processes suggest that most birds are as bright as the level that crows have demonstrated.

dhw: I’m always delighted when you acknowledge the intelligence of our fellow creatures, and thank you for another fascinating natural wonder. Actually, this one was the subject of a children’s play called Maxitweet the Cocoa which I wrote back in the 1980s, and which had numerous productions in primary schools.

Congratulations on the play, and thanks.