Return to David's theory of evolution and theodicy (Evolution)

by David Turell , Thursday, June 29, 2023, 15:52 (303 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: You don’t need to explain that God knew evil would appear. That only reinforces the mystery of theodicy, which asks why an all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing God created evil. Your previous answer has been that the proportion of evil to good is so minuscule that we should ignore the question. Now your answer is that theft, rape, murder, genocide etc. make us more complete and enhanced, that he was powerless to prevent mistakes, and he was unable to devise a system which would not produce natural catastrophes, plus murderous bacteria and viruses (but he tried hard, though often unsuccessfully, to provide remedies in advance).

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The bold is a great distortion of the reality of cellular biochemistry: trillions of reactions per second are normal. Then one tiny miscue causes trouble, unless blocked by one of God's editing systems. This is the only system God found that would work.

DAVID: You prefer to think of it as a battle for survivability which is a correct view, but not as Darwin viewed it, a driver of evolution. Everyone must eat, just like your 'humans plus food' pejorative, which shows us the emptiness of your approach. Eating constantly is imperative.

dhw: Do you honestly believe I am not aware that everyone must eat? The “pejorative” concerns your illogical theory that your God’s one and only purpose was to design us and our food, and therefore he proceeded to design 99% of species and foods that had no connection with us. Stop dodging! (See also the “Miscellany” thread.) And of course the battle for survival drives evolution: every species has evolved different ways of adapting to or exploiting new conditions in order to survive! Those that cannot do so become extinct.

DAVID: Which is what happened to 99.9% as a natural result. That God decided to evolve us was His decision. I cannot tell you His reasoning.

dhw: Summary: I am aware that everyone must eat. The battle for survival does drive evolution. And you have no idea why your God chose to specially design 99 out of 100 species that had nothing to do with his purpose of designing us and our food, which is why you ridicule his method of design as being messy, cumbersome and inefficient.

God purposely used an evolutionary process for His own reasons. I can't ever tell you why.

DAVID: I’ve always thought God created a dog-eat-dog world. One purpose, another was humans. (dhw’s bold)

dhw: But if his purpose was to create a dog-eat-dog world, the 99% of losses were the direct consequence of the free-for-all he intended to create from the beginning. Whether he designed the 99% directly, or gave them the ability to design themselves, makes no difference. Dog-eat-dog, producing an ever changing variety of “dogs”, was the purpose, and so every dog was relevant to that purpose. Now ask yourself what was the purpose of dog-eat-dog, if it was not to provide enjoyment of creation and interest in the ever changing products of creation.

DAVID: Totally misses the point. Whether animal or vegetable, all must have constant nutrition, which creates constant competition.

dhw: Correct, and blindingly obvious. And if God exists, I think we can assume that it was his intention to create the dog-eat-dog battle for survival, as above. You have now told us that he had two purposes: to create the battle, and to create humans plus food. So please tell us why you think he wanted to create a battle which would result in the loss of 99 out of 100 species, bearing in mind that these had no connection with his other purpose.

DAVID: You keep asking the same unanswerable question, His choice of evolving us. No point in asking if there is no answer.

dhw: That is not the question I’m asking. If God exists, I have no difficulty accepting that he chose evolution as his method of creating all forms of life including our own. But you have now extended your range of his purposes from the single one (us and our food) to a battle for survival in which 99% of species become extinct. And I have asked why you think he wanted to create such a battle in the first place. My suggestion is that he might have done so because he enjoys creating and watching the ever changing products of his creation. What is your suggestion?

Ever-changing? As God is the all-knowing designer of all complex biochemistry, He always knows the results. You invent a form of God I don't recognize.

Edited from “bacterial gut help”

DAVID: God cannot control free-living organisms.

dhw: I note that your all-powerful God is now powerless to control free-living organisms. May I suggest that instead of being powerless, he deliberately gave organisms of all kinds the freedom to work out their own means of survival in the dog-eat-dog free-for-all you have described […].

DAVID: I agree.

dhw: A sensational new development in your theory: you agree that your God created a free-for-all. So wouldn’t that explain the 99% of organisms that had no connection with humans? (See also under “More miscellany".)

The 0.1% that survived helped to produce humans. That is how evolution works.