More miscellany Parts One & Two (Evolution)

by dhw, Tuesday, October 08, 2024, 11:29 (10 days ago) @ David Turell

Free-for-all

dhw: Whatever “mistakes” cells make is clearly their own fault if they act autonomously.

DAVID: That is what happens.

dhw: Thank you for your agreement that cells act autonomously. As I have noted before, you are beginning to accept Shapiro’s theory concerning the autonomous intelligence of cells.

An important step forward, which I hope you will not forget.

dhw: If they follow your God’s instructions, any mistakes are his. Exit your perfect, omnipotent, omniscient God.(See later.)

DAVID: The fault in reasoning is yours. The proteins make the mistakes trying to follow the instructions!!!

dhw: I don’t like this focus on proteins, since these are just one component of the cell and have to cooperate with other parts.

DAVID: A cell is all proteins in one form or another. The problem is folding in correctly. Protins are fee to do that.

I was a bit surprised to see this, so I googled and found “All cells are made from the same major classes of organic molecules: nucleic acids, proteins, carbohydrates, and lipids.” It doesn’t matter. Let’s just stick to cells.

dhw: […] Are you telling us that the cancerous cells try but fail to obey your God, or are you telling us that the cancerous cells find their own means of survival and expansion? Why are they so often successful if they are trying but failing to obey your God’s instructions?

DAVID: They use cell DNA instructions for their own use and do it well, anti-God in action.

Your God gives cells instructions on how to deal with “mistakes”, and cancer cells use the instructions to create the “mistakes” that God’s instructions were supposed to correct. Don’t you find this a little confusing? Let’s just stick to the idea that autonomous cells cooperate to form what we see as “good” mechanisms, enabling survival, but some autonomous cells devise ways of surviving that damage the “good” communities – and all this reflects what you have called the “dog-eat-dog living free-for-all”.

Exit the perfect God (see earlier)

DAVID: The 'exit' is yours. God knew in His omniscience the ONLY system that could work. It does work. We are here and helping.

dhw: In his omniscience he knew that he was not omnipotent, was incapable of designing a Garden of Eden, and of correcting rebellious cells, but hoped we humans could help him out, although “he has no wishes[/b]”.

DAVID: No, He doesn't. Life means creating a working system. The workings of the universe are simple is comparison.

So, having no wishes, when he decided to create a working system for life, he did not wish to create a working system for life. And when, according to you, your omniscient, omnipotent God created us to correct the mistakes he couldn’t correct, he did not wish that we would correct the mistakes. He is, however, benevolent – which means he cares for us – but he can’t be benevolent because some humans are benevolent, and your God is not human “in any way”.

Early galaxies

DAVID: […]. We still do not know why the universe has to be as it is. I assume it is all purposeful.
And:
DAVID: Why don't you see the obvious purpose in action?

dhw: “We still don’t know why the universe has to be as it is”, but there is an “obvious purpose”. Please tell us the obvious purpose – which we still can’t see - of every single star, planet, black hole, galaxy, extant and extinct, known and unknown, that has ever existed.

DAVID: We don't know those answers today.

dhw: You just asked why I couldn’t see the obvious purpose, and now you agree that there is no obvious purpose for me to see. It is very helpful of you to demolish your own viewpoints for me. Thank you.

DAVID: That we have no current knowledge does not mean we can't see current purpose. We are here.

(a)That doesn’t tell us the “obvious” reason why the universe has to be as it is, and (b) why fly-eating fungi, cancer, floods and famines, murderous bugs etc. are also here, and their obvious purpose is….?

Disappearance of Neanderthals

Latest suppositions:
https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/did-we-kill-the-neanderthals-new-research-may-f...

The full title is: Did we kill the Neanderthals? New research may finally answer an age-old question.

Even I already knew most of these speculations, and the age-old question has emphatically not been answered.

QUOTE: The really exciting questions like 'Why did Neanderthals disappear?' 'Why did they go extinct?' no longer can have one overarching theory" she said. "Neanderthals as a whole did not have a cohesive, shared fate."

DAVID: the exact story is still unknown but the above guesswork is a good summary.

Once again, I agree with David. The two really exciting questions are in fact exactly thesame (disappear = go extinct). Has there ever been one overarching theory? As you say, we have a summary of various possible causes, some of them pure speculation: “….raising the question of whether modern humans were responsible for killing them off". “Neanderthals may have suffered for that…” . “Neanderthals had many problematic mutations that likely affected their survival.” “Modern humans were likely more capable of thinking quickly.”

New research promises new discoveries, not repeated guesses.