Return to David's theory of evolution and theodicy (Evolution)

by dhw, Sunday, November 19, 2023, 11:43 (160 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: 99.9% are gone forever and can be forgotten in this discussion.

dhw: Yes, they are gone. Why should they be forgotten when this discussion exclusively concerns your theories (a) that your God specially designed them and culled them although they had no connection with the purpose you impose on him (us and our food), and you can’t think of a single reason why he would have done so, but now suddenly (b) they were all our direct ancestors! If only you would stop pretending that it all makes sense to you, and simply acknowledge that this whole theoretical, contradictory mess - you yourself call it messy, cumbersome and inefficient - might just possibly mean that one or both of your theories are wrong, we could move on.

DAVID: You are totally confused on how to view evolution. How we arrived is by stages in evolution we can trace fully recognizing there are small and huge gap all throughout the Darwin tree of life. But we can recognize A stage and then B stage and assume it is true jump, since B seems to cone after A. There is nothing but gaps in evolution […]:

We can trace the stages (or steps) but you call them jumps, which apparently means they are not stages (or steps). And you think I’m confused! (See below re the new entry.)

DAVID: Same baseless complaint about God and His evolution.

dhw: Same dodge. A complaint about an illogical theory about God and evolution is a complaint about the theory, not about God, unless you now think of yourself as God.

DAVID: I believe God did it. Not theory to me.

dhw: Did what? You could believe God created life and designed evolution without lumbering us and him with your dislocated and self-contradictory versions of his purpose and his means of fulfilling that purpose! But, dear David, I quite understand your desperate desire to forget the 99.9% that have caused you so much trouble!

DAVID: We were part of the 99.9% now extinct. We are part of the 0.1% now existing. But there is no point discussing the 99.9% over and over. I've clearly said I can't know why God did it that way. We are here and as God produced us that way, we were His goal.

We (plus our food) were not part of the 99.9% now extinct. We weren’t there, remember? We (and our food) are descended from the 0.1% that were not dead ends. The 99.9% were not our direct ancestors (exit your latest theory). Thank you for once again admitting that you can’t think of a single reason why he would also have designed the 99.9% that had no connection with us or our food. So please stop pretending you know that this was your God’s purpose and method of achieving his purpose and it all makes sense to you. Maybe one or both of your theories are wrong.

DAVID: I know you don't prefer a purposeful form of God based on your proposals of God' personalities, but a purposeful God is my God. My God created the history of evolution we know.

And please stop pretending that my alternative theistic explanations are not purposeful. Each one of them is fully purposeful. If God exists, yes, he created the history of evolution. That does not in any way confirm your version of why and how he did it.

The missing fossils argument: gaps are everywhere
https://evolutionnews.org/2023/11/fossil-friday-protists-add-to-the-cambrian-explosion/

DAVID: gaps are everywhere. I hope this removes dhw's irrational clinging to stepwise evolution as a dogmatic belief. Gaps mean new organism require design because new irreducible complexity is required.

There are several strands to this argument:

1) I am not disputing the existence of gaps.

2) I’m surprised that you dispute the existence of steps. Your two most direct examples of these are whales and humans (as above). Whether there are gaps or steps, you can still argue for design, which goes back to the complexity of the cell and every organism that ever lived.

3) Design is not synonymous with irreducible complexity! The latter involves a single unit, all of whose parts come into existence simultaneously, are integrated with one another to perform a particular function, and cannot be removed without rendering the unit functionless. Evolution is an ongoing process of CHANGES to existing forms, and by definition those changes cannot in themselves be irreducibly complex, since they depend on existing parts if they are to function. Yes, they must be integrated and may be designed, but no, they are not irreducibly complex.

4) If you think every species is "irreducibly complex" and was created separately with no precursors, you are now a fully fledged Creationist and reject the entire theory of evolution, although you never cease to use the word “evolve” in all your posts. You can only use it if you mean your God was responsible for all the innovations that led to one species developing into another.

When did you decide that God did not use evolution, having just told us your God created the history of evolution?