Return to David's theory of evolution and theodicy (Evolution)

by dhw, Monday, July 03, 2023, 08:17 (299 days ago) @ David Turell

Theodicy

dhw: The problem is not solved by telling us that evil is outweighed by good!

DAVID: It all depends upon how humans view evil. Human free will allows humans to be evil, which is not God's fault, although God knew what might happen when He allowed it. As for bad bacteria and viruses, they are agents of good events unless landing in wrong places.

You forget that your all-knowing, first-cause God specially designed everything from the start, and knew what everything WOULD (not “might”) do. And so he knew humans would steal, rape, murder, oppress, exploit, wage war, and that bad bacteria and viruses would kill us, but he still went ahead. Maybe you’re right, but if so, you can hardly call him all-good, and that is the problem of theodicy!

DAVID: What about the evil allowed by your God. Not answered yet.

I have distinguished between the deliberate creation of evil (as in your scenario) and evil as an unforeseen consequence of your God’s experiments, but this leads to the different question of why an all-good God does not intervene. I offered a list of alternative answers: he does not exist, he has gone away, he is dead, he doesn’t care, he enjoys watching it. I am not offering one specific answer to the problem of theodicy. I am offering alternatives, just as I offer alternatives to your illogical theory of evolution, which envisions your God as a messy, cumbersome, inefficient designer.

David's theory of evolution

dhw: What does not make sense, as you well know, is your fixed belief that in order to specially design us and our food, your God specially designed the other 99% which had no connection with us and our food. Stop dodging!

DAVID: Stop ignoring the point God chose to evolve us over time, with the result you deplore.

What result do I deplore? If God exists, he chose to evolve all life forms over time. That does not explain why, according to you, he chose to design 99 out of 100 organisms that had nothing to do with what, according to you, was his one and only purpose: to design us and our food. Stop dodging!

DAVID: I’ve always thought God created a dog-eat-dog world. One purpose, another was humans. (dhw’s bold) […]

dhw: Originally you thought his only purpose was to design us and our food. But now you are telling us that he had another purpose: to design lots of other life forms, unconnected with us, which would engage in a dog-eat-dog battle for survival. [See below.] […] So please tell us why you think he would have wanted to create all these creatures to fight one another, knowing that most of them would disappear anyway.

DAVID: Still seeking an answer I don't have. At each stage all have to eat, thus each stage is large.

dhw: The fact that all organisms have to eat does not explain why, according to you, your purposeful God specially designed all the organisms just so they could fight one another! I have taken up your earlier expression of certainty that he enjoys creating, and watches his creations with interest, as being a logical purpose in itself for his creation of the dog-eat-dog battle. We humans also enjoy creating things we can watch with interest, and as you have repeatedly agreed, if God exists, we may reflect him and share some of his thought patterns and emotions. (See below)

DAVID: The red is foolishness. Not just fighting but eating to survive!!! I agree God and we have similarities.

Why don’t you read what I write? Of course they fight to survive! I’ve now put it in red for you above! And I’ve asked you why your God wanted them to fight, and I’ve offered you an explanation. Since you acknowledge that we reflect your God, do you now accept the logic of that explanation?

DAVID: Wonderful, you recognize food is necessary. But you ignore how necessary it is. Don't you eat two/three times a day? Then you berate me because I cannot give you God's reasons for His choices of methods. I simply accept what God did. Do you know all your God's reasons? He used evolution also. Please answer.

Please stop pretending that I’m an idiot. Of course food is/was necessary for all organisms, including the 99% that had no connection with us and our food. I berate you because you offer us illogical theories about what your God did and why he did it, but you insist that he did what you say he did for reasons which make no sense even to you. I offer you alternatives, and your sole reason for rejecting them is that they humanise him, although you agree that he and we have similarities.