Return to David's theory of evolution (Evolution)

by dhw, Monday, February 13, 2023, 08:41 (438 days ago) @ David Turell

Evolving a universe for life

DAVID: dhw appears to have little recognition God evolves everything; […]

https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/quantum-reason-neutral-atoms/?utm_campaign=swab...

DAVID: ALL OF IT IS EVOLUTION!!! GOD EVOLVES EVERYTHING. It is ALWAYS His pattern of creation. dhw take notice!! […]

dhw: Of course the universe evolved! Just as we evolved and every other life form evolved. I doubt if there is a single atheist who does not believe that the universe and life evolved. What I object to is the theory that your all-powerful, all-purposeful, all-knowing God would deliberately design 200 billion trillion stars plus all the dead ones, and millions of now extinct organisms, knowing in advance that 99% of his designs would be mistakes and failed experiments, because all he wanted to produce was one species (homo sapiens) and our food.

DAVID: Let's stay with the multiple stars comment first: Supernovas supply all heavier elements beyond hydrogen, a fact in cosmologic science. God had the stars make the necessary elements.

I’m not disputing the fact that stars produced the elements. I’m disputing the bolded theory above.

DAVID: Secondly, we are here. God achieved making the most complex item in the universe, our brain. God evolved it.

I’m not disputing the fact that we are here. I’m disputing the bolded theory above.

DAVID: God's 'mistakes' actually progress in any evolutionary system. (dhw's bold)

dhw: […] how many of God’s evolutionary systems do you know? The evolutionary system we know tells us that 99% per cent of his designs came to a dead end, i.e. made no further progress, and that is why you call them mistakes and failures. Please stop contradicting yourself.

DAVID: The answer is all evolutionary processes have dead ends, and all you do is concentrate on them as if they stifle advances.

We know of only one evolution of life, and I have never said dead ends stifle advances. Dead ends are dead ends because they do not advance. Only the 1% advance, as you have agreed. And you call the 99% mistakes and blame God for making a mess of evolution.

DAVID: Raup says it was not mistakes in design but bad luck! The design failed a necessary adaptation to changes. It is a design fault in a lack of adaptability.

The 99% failed to survive because they were unlucky enough to be badly designed, but apparently bad design is not a fault or a mistake, although you blame God for his mistakes. Please stop contradicting yourself.

DAVID: No blame. Failure to survive is part and parcel of the system He chose to and was successful with.
And:
DAVID: under His control your God did not have a 99.9% Raup failure rate? They magically disappeared?

dhw: How many more times? Raup’s “failure to survive” is not synonymous with your God making mistakes! […] And you have said explicitly:“Once God appears, He is responsible for all the messy aspects of evolution, Yes, He is. The whole of evolution is a messy process of successes and failures. [...].” (11 December 2022) Unless you consider mistakes and failures and mess to be praiseworthy, I would suggest that responsibility = blame.

DAVID: God ran evolution. He is responsible for all its warts.

So why did you say he was not to blame? Please stop contradicting yourself!

dhw: Why do think countless mistakes, failed experiments, mess, lack of control, dependence on luck etc. are the attributes of an all-powerful, strong, always-in-control God, whereas a God who gets what he wants without making any mistakes is to be considered “wimpy”? .

DAVID: Not ever dodged. Purposely distorted by you. My all-powerful, all-knowing all-purposeful God used a method of his choice to produce us!!

If he exists, then I agree that he must have used a method of his choice, since we are here. But why would he have chosen the messy, fault-ridden, method you have chosen for him when there are at least three alternative methods which lead to the same result without the mistakes and mess you blame him for?

DAVID: Your play by free-for-all God not=in-full- control, changes course with new suddenly developed ideas, and is not a wimp??!!

None of my versions have him changing course. Why is it “wimpy” to try different methods or to set out to discover/invent new things, but not “wimpy” to make countless blunders and rely on luck to help you reach your goal?

DAVID: You have totally left the God from the Bible we should be discussing. Did your fuzzy God have any idea from the beginning he would produce humans??

Why must you bring the Bible into it? The Bible doesn’t even mention evolution, let alone a God who makes mistake after mistake, failed experiment after failed experiment, faulty design, and countless messy attempts to design Adam & Eve and their food, because he could only design organisms that would fit in with the different conditions thrown up by chance on the first, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth days. Your God is an incompetent bungler, but apparently that makes him more godlike that my alternatives, which see him as achieving what he wants without making any mistakes.