Back to David's theory of evolution (Evolution)

by dhw, Tuesday, August 04, 2020, 08:56 (1570 days ago) @ David Turell

The first part of this post repeats material dealt with under “God’s errors”, and I would combine them but I am very pressed for time today.

dhw: I wonder how many believers believe that your God could but couldn’t control the errors in his system....[followed by several other examples of blatant contradictions!]

DAVID: The bold is your problem. Let's concentrate on it. God knew those errors could happen because the system runs on molecules reacting, folding, etc. in order to provide proper functions at just the right time in a split-second production system. The molecules ARE FREE TO MAKE MISTAKES.

dhw: You wrote under “Human evolution” on July 25: “A mutational error favoured by natural selection or by God may have arranged for our human evolution.” If mutational errors can be beneficial, and your God left them free to make such “errors”, you are clearly allowing an alternative to your concept of direct design of species: namely, that your God left evolutionary changes to the molecules themselves. In your own words: “God may allow beneficial ones”. Not “design” but “allow”. I can then offer you a choice: either these changes were random (Darwin) and your God allowed them to happen, or the cells themselves deliberately organized them with their (perhaps God-given) intelligence (Shapiro). Which would you regard as more likely?

DAVID: Please see today's error entry to clarify your thinking.

Your thinking remains as contradictory as ever.

DAVID: Shapiro theory of no value.

If your God did not design every species but “allowed” the relevant random mutations to happen, then random mutations led to speciation (Darwin). Shapiro suggests the mutations were the product of cellular intelligence. So you are now a Darwinian.

DAVID: (under “Brain expansion”): […] You've pounced on errors as a gift from me to denigrate God. But it hasn't worked.

This is not denigration of God! You wrote: “I am the one willing to show that God is not all-powerful and all knowing and He can’t stop molecular errors in a system he created.” THAT is denigration of your God. I propose that he did what he WANTED to do – namely, create a mechanism that would give rise to the higgledy-piggledy bush of life’s history, culminating (so far) in humans. No denigration. You have simply proposed a theory of errors which negates your theory of speciation by your God's direct design.
xxxx

Under “Nature’s Wonders”:
DAVID: Loggerhead turtles travel the world and spread species of life that cannot move on their own:
http://oceans.nautil.us/feature/592/theres-a-world-living-on-every-loggerhead?mc_cid=4f...

DAVID: this shows how interconnected the whole vast bush of life actually is and how necessary it all is to each and every branch. dhw doesn't seem to understand it had to be built over time as part of the goal of creating humans.
And under “parasites and the bush”: DAVID: same old story. All parts of the bush count as very important and required at all phases of evolution. dhw should take notice.

dhw: The “whole vast bush of life” reaches back 3.8 billion years, 99% of it being extinct. Of course creatures within any econiche are connected, but it is patently absurd to claim that turtles…show that every single econiche in the history of life “had to be built as part of the goal of creating humans”. [...]

DAVID: Thank you for finally recognizing the interconnection of econiches and then presenting your usual confused and limited understanding of their importance.

I have always recognized the interconnectedness of econiches, have never underestimated their importance for ALL organisms extant and extinct (i.e. the ones you prefer to forget about), but have always challenged your repeated assumption that every econiche in the history of life was directly designed by your God “as part of the goal of creating humans”. Please stop erecting silly straw men.

DAVID: Your capacity for not following my logic is endless. God runs reality and history therefore tells us what He did, but not why.

But you keep telling us why: “as part of the goal of creating humans”. And you keep agreeing that you can’t explain how every single econiche in history contributed towards the direct design of H. sapiens. If you can’t explain something , please don’t tell us it is logical.

Your comments on two more fascinating natural wonders:

DAVID: An insect cannot develop a toxin by trial and error and survive. Designed by God.

Maybe its ancestors survived by other means. You forgot to mention “as part of the goal of creating humans”, and to explain why humans cannot survive without toxic spider webs.

DAVID: Bacteria were the start of evolution, and are still here contributing to the balance of nature in so many ways we have demonstrated here. No wonder they were kept around as the longest lasting organisms. I'm sure by God's design.

I agree with most of this! Bacteria are integral to all forms of life, including our own (we apparently have about 39 trillion of them, along with 30 trillion cells). Our bodies are communities of cells and bacteria that cooperate to keep us going, and some scientists say that they do so with their autonomous intelligence. I would add that if so, this intelligence may be “by God’s design”.