Back to David's theory of evolution (Evolution)

by dhw, Saturday, July 18, 2020, 10:19 (1587 days ago) @ David Turell

Under: “Planned cell death”

DAVID: Settles the issue that cells follow a death plan.

DAVID: You've avoided my direct statement of fact that ageing & death are both built into the system purposely. Old has to clear out for new. God built in ageing. Errors of rapidly reacting molecules are never His fault. The biological errors were expected by God, as shown by all the backup systems He designed into place.

dhw: You simply left out my comment: “Now you seem to be telling us that the only deliberately caused death is death by old age!” Meanwhile, you continue to insist that although your God built the system from scratch, bbhe is not responsible for its errorsbbb, and you refuse to say why you are opposed to the theory that your all-powerful God might have created the “errors” deliberately because his plan was – as you put it – to clear out the old for the new.

DAVID: Of course the errors result from the system He created. I've answered the deliberate issue. His backups shows us He tried to stop them.

So he deliberately created death by old age and the death of the cells of which we are all made, but he did not deliberately create the various errors that result in any death other than these. He tried to stop all the unplanned deaths but couldn’t, although we are so smart that sometimes we can. Is that correct?

DAVID: God does what He wants to do, and His inventions have limits.

dhw: I’m happy with that. It means that he wanted his inventions to have limits. It clearly does NOT mean that the limits were beyond his control. […]

DAVID: Total misinterpretation. See above. He tried to correct expected errors.

So he didn’t want the errors, wanted to correct them, but was unable to do what he wanted to do, although he “does what He wants to do”.

QUOTE: "The authors describe some of the terrible things that happen when components fail.

DAVID: My bold is God's recognition of probable molecular failures. Definitely not intended or planned by God on purpose. Very carefully designed.

dhw: Your bold introduces a list which includes umpteen “terrible things” that kill young and old indiscriminately. Death is “built into the system”, but according to you these causes of death are errors. And they are definitely not intended or planned but are very carefully designed! Can you honestly not see how illogical this is?

DAVID: Cell deaths and organism deaths are purposeful as my entries show.

So how does that make the failures definitely not intended or planned but very carefully designed?

DAVID: My analysis is based on Adler's argument, which you recognize is strong.

dhw: I have nothing against Adler’s argument (the exceptionalism of sapiens as evidence of God's existence) as you have relayed it to us. But you have told us that his argument does not extend to the rest of your theory.

DAVID: Adler quotes observations about our evolution.

If he supports your theory as bolded below, then I would take issue with him, just as I take issue with you. Please stop hiding behind Adler and deal with the issue.

DAVID: …and you rebuttal above refuses to accept the idea God can choose any method of creation He wants, something you always scurry back to when challenged with.

dhw: Of course your God can choose any method he wants! But that does not mean he chose YOUR method! Yet again, I have offered you alternatives which you accept as logical. Stop dodging!

DAVID: Your substitute methods are all humanizing: experimenting, spectacles, late decision to try out inventing humans.

Answered in my next comment, which you ignore by claiming I twist your arguments.

dhw: Your “humanizing” objection to my logical alternatives is invalidated by your agreement that your God probably has thought patterns similar to ours, so please stop flogging it.

dhw: […] please tell me which of your arguments I have twisted.

DAVID: God has chosen to evolve us, and you keep saying that is wrong. It is my theory.

dhw: If God exists, I have no problem with the theory that he has chosen to evolve us. My problem is your insistence that although you keep saying he is all-powerful and always in control (now qualified by his helplessness at the beginning of this post), and although his only purpose was to produce us, he spent 3.X billion years NOT producing us but instead directly designed (this is your idea of “evolving”) untold millions of now extinct non-human life forms, natural wonders etc. Please stop dodging, and please tell me which of your arguments I have twisted.

DAVID: My choice of God's method argument is what you twist (last bold). Your first sentence agrees with His evolving us. So what is wrong with it taking all the time it took?

What is wrong is not the time it took but your claim that although the only life forms he wanted to evolve were us and our food supplies, he chose to “evolve” (by which you mean directly design) 3.X billion years’ worth of non-human life forms etc. in order to feed humans who did not even exist.