Back to David's theory of evolution (Evolution)

by dhw, Friday, May 29, 2020, 11:11 (1637 days ago)

I have brought “slime mold” and “ant farming” back under David’s theory of evolution, since we have left the original subjects so far behind.

dhw: I have always brought God in as the possible inventor of cellular intelligence! The disagreement between us is over your insistence that your God either preprogrammed or dabbled every single life form, lifestyle, strategy and natural wonder, whereas I propose that (theistic version) he gave them the intelligence to do their own designing.

DAVID: As usual bringing in God when you have no explanation for a natural appearance of intelligence. You can't have it both ways.

God's existence is not the subject of our discussion! The question is whether evolution is directed by cellular intelligence or divine programming/dabbling. My proposal allows for God as the inventor of cellular intelligence. However,the alternative sources of this would be chance and/or some form of panpsychism. I leave that open. What we cannot have “both ways” is divine programming/dabbling and autonomous intelligence.

DAVID (re leaf-biting): You have your brain sitting in Miss Bee, but not acting as a human brain would have to act to see the relationship. Axiom: two events separated in time cannot be accepted as related without multiple examples recorded (mentaly or written). This is how observational science works.

It’s not my brain sitting in Miss Bee, and she is not an observational scientist! She simply noticed that a fortnight after she bit a leaf, the plant flowered. So she told her buddies, they tried it, and it worked! You seem to believe that in order to perform the trick, bees should think like humans, can’t do so, and therefore God had to do the thinking for them!

dhw: (Under “ants control aggression”) If God exists, he might have dabbled with their genome each time in order to “advance their intelligence”, but I reckon it’s more likely that intelligence was built into the first cells and inherited in different forms by all the different combinations of cells that led to all the different life forms.

DAVID: Sounds like my pre-programming thought.

Your divine 3.8-billion-year-old programme for ant and bee strategies is the exact opposite of strategies designed by autonomous (perhaps God-given) intelligence.

dhw: Instead of your God preprogramming or dabbling everything, I have him endowing the first cells with intelligence, and this was inherited in different forms….see bolds above.

DAVID: Thank you for accepting pre-programming by God. Why not accept God? You are still having it both ways, because you have no explanation of intelligence without him.

I wrote “instead of preprogramming”, and you interpret that as acceptance of preprogramming! See above. And see my first paragraph as regards your attempt to conflate two separate issues: 1) the existence of cellular intelligence, and 2) its possible origin.

dhw: I just can’t understand why your all-powerful God would create 100-200 billion galaxies just for the sake of producing H. sapiens. The same problem as with all those different extinct life forms etc. over 3.X thousand million years, when he only wanted one.

DAVID: Just accept it as His course of action. He is in charge of creation his way. And, surprise, His reasons may not fit your human expectations.

Since you cannot find any logical reason why your all-powerful God would have designed countless millions of galaxies, life forms, natural wonders etc. for the sole purpose of designing one life form, H. sapiens (plus food), why should I “accept” that this was his chosen method of fulfilling what you think was his single purpose? You continue to ignore this, the subject of our disagreement.

DAVID: I don't ignore it. You won't accept any aspect of my reasoning. Your double talk describes in the bold an exact description of evolution, which is his method of creation. I don't need to know his reasoning, if I accept history as the evidence for his choice, I know His choice, and guesses as to his possible reasons are just guesses. [...]

And so once again you slide over the illogical COMBINATION of your rigid beliefs! Which choice do you “know”? We both believe evolution happened, and so if God exists, evolution was his choice of method to fulfil whatever may have been his purpose. You do not “know” that H. sapiens was his purpose, or that he directly designed every life form, natural wonder etc., or that he is all-powerful, always in control, and can do whatever he wants in any way that he wants. These three guesses of yours leave with “no idea” how to fit them together with the history of evolution, and so you would prefer to stop reasoning, and to reject any alternatives to your three guesses because – more of your “logic” - they entail thought patterns similar to ours although according to you he probably/possibly has thought patterns similar to ours.

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DAVID (under “…econiche importance”) : Same view. Econiches are absolutely necessary for all of living organisms food supply. The vast diversity of the bush of life allows this to happen naturally, until humans step in to change things.

Agreed. Thank you for not trying to link this to your theory that the vast diversity of past econiches was somehow necessary for your God to fulfil his one and only purpose of H. sapiens and his econiches.