Let's study ID: giraffe plumbing: cognition (Introduction)

by David Turell , Saturday, October 30, 2021, 14:50 (1118 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: But since you have no idea how to explain your theory (you tell me to go and ask God), we are doomed to your endless dodging.

DAVID: The use of the word 'dodge' is meaningless. We have an insoluble disagreement.

dhw: If I ask why your God would have designed countless forms of life and food that had no connection with humans, although you say his only goal was humans plus food, and you tell me to go and ask God, I count that as dodging. I shan’t go through the long list of other dodges.

Not a dodge, but making the point God didn't tell me but might answer you.

Immunity system complexity

DAVID: I agree with the quote. Nowhere does He say cells are in and of themselves intelligent.

dhw: Then why is his blog called “cellular intelligence”? How can organisms converse and exchange information if they don’t have the intelligence to communicate with and understand each other?

DAVID: All opinion!

dhw: Yes, his opinion is that cells are intelligent.

QUOTE: "…..reveal a level of cellular intelligence that is unrecognised by science and is not amenable to computer analysis."

DAVID: Just my point. We scientists do not recognize it.

dhw: Your point was that Shapiro was McClintock’s only current “follower”. The theory is not recognized as a fact, but this author SUPPORTS it! You “didn’t waste time digging into the others”, which apparently proves that none of these scientists advocates the theory. Try this one:

QUOTE: "Perception, memory, valence, learning, decision-making, anticipation, communication – all once thought the preserve of humankind – are found in a wide variety of living things, including bacteria, unicellular eukaryotes, plants, fungi, non-neuronal animals, and animals with simple nervous systems and brains.”
Read the Wikipedia list of references. And yet you claim McClintock has had only one follower!

My point remains, it is all opinion, no proof, and claimed "unrecognized by science" (above)

Common design
DAVID: Life processes are a required first in designs. Body forms are secondary designs. The real continuity is biochemistry. Darwin only knew body form (anatomy). Not confusing.

dhw: All you are saying is that all life forms depend on biochemical processes. How does this explain your theory that humans are directly descended from bacteria, but humans are descended from life forms that had no predecessors?

DAVID: A designer can create gaps in form rather than miniscule tiny steps in form, if he wishes.

dhw: Of course he can do whatever he likes. Now please tell us whether you think humans are descended from bacteria or from the Cambrian life forms you think your God created without precursors. And if he created a new line for us, why did he bother to create all the other lines that had no connection with us?

We all come from the earliest Archaean forms, i.e., the start of life's processes. Latter forms all use the same basic processes. The Cambrian gap is a phenotypical gap, not a biochemical gap.

dhw: Do you agree that nobody knows how cells reach the decisions which trigger automatic processes to implement those decisions?

DAVID: I agree we don't have proof. What I see is all the automatic processes produce life automatically, no decision making required.

dhw: We’re not talking about “producing life” but about the manner in which live organisms cope with conditions. And this interaction constantly requires decisions. So do you agree that nobody knows how cells make their decisions?

DAVID: From the outside we must theorize. Kidney cells are in constant control of blood plasma sodium levels second by second: nothing but automaticity between set boundaries.

dhw: You always refer to automatic processes that operate when conditions are stable. Intelligence will only be required to invent those processes, and then to correct, defend, adapt, and invent new processes when conditions change. So do you agree that nobody knows how cells make their decisions?

I view all responses to all changes as automatic, but agree not absolutely proven as yet.