Let's study ID: giraffe plumbing (Introduction)

by dhw, Thursday, October 14, 2021, 08:26 (306 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Accept the history God created.

dhw: It is you who refuse to accept the history! You insist that your God's only purpose was to create us and our food, but although he could have created humans and their food directly, he chose instead to directly design countless other life forms and foods that had no connection with humans and our food. Obvious conclusion: either we were NOT his only purpose, or he had to learn how to get what he wanted, or he did not directly design the countless other life forms.

DAVID: It is you, who doesn't believe in God, who invents the problem. You are applying human reasons for His delayed choice. My God can do exactly what He wants when He wants. You obviously cannot understand the God I believe in.

If your God can do exactly what he wants when he wants, it makes no sense to say that he wants humans and their food and therefore designs countless life forms and foods that have no connection with what he wants. Hence your unenlightening responses: “Go and ask God”, and “God does not have to be logical”.

Immunity system complexity
QUOTES: “The only limiting thing here is our understanding of how the RNA is controlled […]
"[…] Kinney aims to clarify these mysteries […] — how the spliceosome reads the RNA sequence and makes its cutting decisions.
” [dhw’s bolds]

DAVID: The information for the standard cell production of antibodies is in the genome, and as yet a mystery.

Thank you for acknowledging that HOW the cells take their decisions is a mystery. That is what our discussion is all about. You do not solve the mystery by repeating that recognition of invaders and design of new antibodies automatically follow your God’s instructions.

dhw: Please tell us precisely what these “instructions” consist of. [...] And if they already give the complete “recipe” (= “preprogrammed”) for the new antibody, what exactly is added to the library?

DAVID: A new antibody is automatically made as described above and added to the library.

dhw: The library does not already contain the new antibodies (so they are not programmed […]). A new antibody is different from former antibodies, so how can it be made "automatically", i.e. without thought?

DAVID: Repeat: By automatically adding killer or modifying proteins to the invader antigen.

How do unthinking cells know what proteins or modifications will destroy the new invader? […]

DAVID: Because like all cell processes, the output of required product never changes.

But the product changes! If it didn’t, the antigen would have a free run!

DAVID: You eat and your stomach cells produce acid, automatically, every meal!!! Immune cells work the same way!!!

Of course the vast majority of our cells work automatically until something goes wrong. Only then do cells have to take decisions on how to deal with the errors, whether the causes are internal or external. It is the decision-making that is the mystery.

You have posted two more articles on the same subject, also emphasizing the unknown (my bolds):

Controlling gut biome
QUOTE: The way in which the human immune system manages to maintain this delicate balance in the intestine largely remains unknown.[dhw’s bold] […] These natural defense substances are part of the immune system, and recognize an exogenous pathogen very specifically according to the lock-and-key principle. (David’s bold)

We have agreed that cells recognize invaders. But you don’t recognize that recognition entails cognition.

QUOTE: “However, the mystery of the way in which IgA antibodies regulate the consensual coexistence in the intestine has remained unsolved.”

Another mystery which you think you solve by calling the process automatic, thanks to God’s vague programming/instructions.

DAVID: I read the word 'simultaneous' to indicate automaticity of the immune responses. Note the cells can quickly identify the gut bugs and handle them immediately. […] The cells act intelligently because they are programmed that way. Sorry your pet theory doesn't fit this reality.

Another vague “programme”. We should distinguish between old and new threats. If the threat is familiar, no doubt the response will be “simultaneous”. The test comes when the invader is new. You seem to have forgotten that building the library is an on-going process, as immune cells mysteriously succeed in working out how to form NEW antibodies to combat NEW invaders. Once formed, these will become part of the available library. The mystery is how cells produce the NEW antibodies in the first place.

God’s editing system for new protein
DAVID: Molecules don't think. Chaperone molecules are following protein formation and know when it is wrong. How they know based on protein reactions is yet to be discovered. When that is thoroughly researched, there will be automaticity, no thought involved, as in all other studies previously described. (dhw’s bold)

You’ve seen the results of all the research in your crystal ball, have you? None of the studies have stated that it is all automatic, no thought involved, although no doubt many researchers share your views on automaticity even if they don’t share you erratic belief that your God did or didn’t preprogramme or give instructions for each new antibody.

Complete thread:

 RSS Feed of thread

powered by my little forum