Let's study ID: giraffe plumbing (Introduction)

by dhw, Friday, October 15, 2021, 11:55 (50 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: It is you, who doesn't believe in God, who invents the problem. You are applying human reasons for His delayed choice. My God can do exactly what He wants when He wants. You obviously cannot understand the God I believe in.

dhw: If your God can do exactly what he wants when he wants, it makes no sense to say that he wants humans and their food and therefore designs countless life forms and foods that have no connection with what he wants.

DAVID: Same foolish response. You are interpreting God's wishes from known events He produced.

The known events are all forms of life, including those that had no connection with humans (plus our food). You interpret these as evidence that, although according to you your God designed them all individually, his only "wish" (previously known as purpose) was to design humans (plus our food). Your interpretation makes no sense even to you (“Go and ask God”).

Immunity system complexity
DAVID: The information for the standard cell production of antibodies is in the genome, and as yet a mystery.

dhw: Thank you for acknowledging that HOW the cells take their decisions is a mystery. That is what our discussion is all about. You do not solve the mystery by repeating that recognition of invaders and design of new antibodies automatically follow your God’s instructions.

DAVID: But that is exactly what I believe. All biologic processes are the same. Fertilized egg makes a baby automatically. Homeostasis means automatic controls in liver and kidney, the cells following standard instructions.

Our example is the immune system, so why have you changed the subject? I already answered this point earlier. “Of course the vast majority of our cells work automatically until something goes wrong. Only then do cells have to take decisions on how to deal with the errors, whether the causes are internal or external. It is the decision-making that is the mystery.”

dhw: How do unthinking cells know what proteins or modifications will destroy the new invader? […]

DAVID: Genetic instructions describe the same process for appropriate protein killers added to the foreign proteins (antigens).

You keep harping on about the PROCESS. Yes, the process is recognizing invaders and producing antibodies, but recognizing each NEW foreign invader and concocting each NEW appropriate killer requires thought. Each antibody is NEW, and that is why it added to the existing library.
You now go on to produce lots of examples of automaticity, ignoring the point that it is when things go wrong that new thoughts are required. You even agree that recognition of what is wrong is itself a mystery:

DAVID: Molecules don't think. Chaperone molecules are following protein formation and know when it is wrong. How they know based on protein reactions is yet to be discovered. When that is thoroughly researched, there will be automaticity, no thought involved, as in all other studies previously described. (dhw’s bold)

dhw: You’ve seen the results of all the research in your crystal ball, have you? None of the studies have stated that it is all automatic, no thought involved, although no doubt many researchers share your views on automaticity even if they don’t share your erratic belief that your God did or didn’t preprogramme or give instructions for each new antibody.

DAVID: God did his programming. Your response is wildly erratic to protect your pet cell intelligence theory. I look at whole organ automatic function in which programmed cells act as if intelligent.

You have agreed that your God did not preprogramme every single new antibody to kill every single new invader for the whole of life’s history. (Each new antibody is added to the library without your God’s intervention, remember?) If he exists, what he would have designed is the MEANS whereby cells recognize and counter the threat posed by new invaders. It is your fixed belief that although cells then act ”as if intelligent”, they are not intelligent, and your explanation is that your God provided a programme or “instructions”, but when asked for details you simply repeat the PROCESS and repeat that you know the apparently intelligent behaviour is automatic. You adopt the same blinkered attitude in the articles “How T-cells kill” and “Molecular processes”:

DAVID: “The bold describes that the T cell knows non-self automatically and adds 'cytotoxic proteins' to kill. These specialized cells follow instructions activated in their DNA…
Don't try to follow the steps. Just note how each step affects the next until a result is achieved. It is all automatic.”

And see also your closing remark below.

dhw (under “Miscellany”): …when scientists in the field such as McLintock, Margulis (“I do think consciousness is a property of all living cells") and Shapiro champion the concept of cellular intelligence, you could perhaps be just a little more cautious in your dismissal of the idea. And once again, please note that it does NOT exclude your God as the possible designer, which was your original objection to my theory.

DAVID: All covered in previous entries. At the organ level all is automatic with intelligently programmed cells doing their work.


Complete thread:

 RSS Feed of thread

powered by my little forum