Let's study ID (Introduction)

by David Turell , Monday, August 23, 2021, 15:20 (970 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Perfectly logical if you accept God has the right to create everything by any method He wishes, and you have accepted that premise.

dhw: Of course he has the right. I am only questioning the logic of the goal and method you impose on him.

I didn't impose a method on God. I think God created our known historical facts. Evolution occurred and humans appeared at the end. Conclusion: God wised to create Humans and did it by evolving them from bacteria. There is no false logic involved.

DAVID: Just accept that God creates by evolving, as I have shown, the universe from the BB, the Earth from its appearance, life from its origin. All reflected in known history.

dhw: No problem so far, assuming God exists.

DAVID: It is then perfectly logical to accept that God wanted us to appear and did it starting with bacteria.

dhw: But it is perfectly logical that if God designed every species, he wanted EVERY species to appear and did it starting with bacteria. What is not logical is that he only wanted humans plus their food to appear, and therefore designed lot of species and food that had no connection with humans and their food. STOP DODGING!

You just left the logic above. Your inference is why didn't God just go to direct creation of us if that is all He wanted? That is you illogical humanizing objection. What He created is what He wanted to create over time.

DAVID: Your objection is an entirely human objection, which fully implies if He wanted something why not directly do it? I've constantly made this same point over the years of our discussion.

dhw: No, this is the point which I have constantly made and which you constantly try to dodge. Last time you wanted to draw a parallel with humans and our goals, and I did so. All I want to do is write a book about agnosticism, and so first of all I write 20 books about gardening. You have skipped over the parallel you wanted to draw. Why? Because of course it illustrates precisely the same illogicality as your theory of evolution. So please stop dodging.

Your discussion is using a human example and fails. Gardening has certainly nothing to do with agnosticism. I agree. That God chose to evolve us is fact if one believes in God as I do.

DAVID: Your same totally human complaint about my view of God, which can never be like your view of a human-level-reasoning God. When will you realize God doesn't reason as you do?

dhw: When will you realize that maybe God does not reason as you do, since your own interpretation of his reasoning makes no sense even to you! (You have no idea why he would have chosen to design all the life forms etc. that had no connection with humans and their food. So maybe he didn't design them. Or maybe he did, but their purpose was not to enable him to design us.)

All I admit is I have no idea why He chose evolution as his means of all progress, but history tells us the universe evolved after the BB, the Earth evolved, and after life started it evolved. You remain confused as you deal with your very human form of God.

DAVID: I don't dodge your unacceptable illogical thoughts about God in the way you attempt to imply. I wish you could see your God as I see Him, but you resent my previous descriptions of Him, although I view them as an honest set of conclusions based on the ways you have Him act.

dhw: Your descriptions of him are preconceptions (always in control, all-powerful, all-good, all-knowing) and your insistence that humans were his one and only purpose for creating life is inconsistent with your belief that he proceeded to create millions of life forms etc. that had no connection with humans. Your conclusions are therefore based on the ways YOU have him act, and you are then forced to tell us that God doesn’t reason as we humans do – apart from one dear friend of mine, who firmly believes that his view of God’s reasoning is incomprehensibly illogical but we must accept it.

Again we are back to having to review your very humanized concept of God. Try to accept that history tells us what God decided to do and how He did it. Humans appear at the final curtain in the play of reality. Perhaps my dear playwright friend can understand it in his terms.