Let's study ID: giraffe plumbing (Introduction)

by David Turell , Thursday, October 14, 2021, 18:56 (918 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: It is you, who doesn't believe in God, who invents the problem. You are applying human reasons for His delayed choice. My God can do exactly what He wants when He wants. You obviously cannot understand the God I believe in.

If your God can do exactly what he wants when he wants, it makes no sense to say that he wants humans and their food and therefore designs countless life forms and foods that have no connection with what he wants.

Same foolish response. You are interpreting God's wishes from known events He produced.

Immunity system complexity

DAVID: The information for the standard cell production of antibodies is in the genome, and as yet a mystery.

dhw: Thank you for acknowledging that HOW the cells take their decisions is a mystery. That is what our discussion is all about. You do not solve the mystery by repeating that recognition of invaders and design of new antibodies automatically follow your God’s instructions.

But that is exactly what I believe. All biologic processes are the same. Fertilized egg makes a baby automatically. Homeostasis means automatic controls in liver and kidney, the cells following standard instructions.

dhw: The library does not already contain the new antibodies (so they are not programmed […]). A new antibody is different from former antibodies, so how can it be made "automatically", i.e. without thought?

DAVID: Repeat: By automatically adding killer or modifying proteins to the invader antigen.

dhw: How do unthinking cells know what proteins or modifications will destroy the new invader? […]

Genetic instructions describe the same process for appropriate protein killers added to the foreign proteins (antigens).

DAVID: Because like all cell processes, the output of required product never changes.

dhw: But the product changes! If it didn’t, the antigen would have a free run!

Same killer proteins added to a different antigen. Same process over and over.

DAVID: You eat and your stomach cells produce acid, automatically, every meal!!! Immune cells work the same way!!!

Of course the vast majority of our cells work automatically until something goes wrong. Only then do cells have to take decisions on how to deal with the errors, whether the causes are internal or external. It is the decision-making that is the mystery.

You have posted two more articles on the same subject, also emphasizing the unknown (my bolds):

dhw: We have agreed that cells recognize invaders. But you don’t recognize that recognition entails cognition.

Remember transplant problems. They exist because we/our cells always automatically recognize non-self!!!

QUOTE: “However, the mystery of the way in which IgA antibodies regulate the consensual coexistence in the intestine has remained unsolved.”

DAVID: I read the word 'simultaneous' to indicate automaticity of the immune responses. Note the cells can quickly identify the gut bugs and handle them immediately. […] The cells act intelligently because they are programmed that way. Sorry your pet theory doesn't fit this reality.

dhw: The test comes when the invader is new. You seem to have forgotten that building the library is an on-going process, as immune cells mysteriously succeed in working out how to form NEW antibodies to combat NEW invaders. Once formed, these will become part of the available library. The mystery is how cells produce the NEW antibodies in the first place.

No mystery: the cells are programmed in the genome to always produce the same killer/ modifier proteins added to the antigen of the invader. Just like the automaticity seen in embryology, and liver, kidney homeostatic processes. No thought involved.

God’s editing system for new protein
DAVID: Molecules don't think. Chaperone molecules are following protein formation and know when it is wrong. How they know based on protein reactions is yet to be discovered. When that is thoroughly researched, there will be automaticity, no thought involved, as in all other studies previously described. (dhw’s bold)

dhw: You’ve seen the results of all the research in your crystal ball, have you? None of the studies have stated that it is all automatic, no thought involved, although no doubt many researchers share your views on automaticity even if they don’t share you erratic belief that your God did or didn’t preprogramme or give instructions for each new antibody.

God did his programming. Your response is wildly erratic to protect your pet cell intelligence theory. I look at whole organ automatic function in which programmed cells act as if intelligent.