Let's study ID: giraffe plumbing: cognition (Introduction)

by dhw, Saturday, October 30, 2021, 08:13 (29 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: But since you have no idea how to explain your theory (you tell me to go and ask God), we are doomed to your endless dodging.

DAVID: The use of the word 'dodge' is meaningless. We have an insoluble disagreement.

If I ask why your God would have designed countless forms of life and food that had no connection with humans, although you say his only goal was humans plus food, and you tell me to go and ask God, I count that as dodging. I shan’t go through the long list of other dodges.

Immunity system complexity
dhw: you claimed that the theory [cellular intelligence] was outdated, whereas I directed you to loads of websites in which it is still current (see "Theodicy"). […]. More dodging.

DAVID: And I showed you your websites were non-supportive.

dhw: You did no such thing! Your only response was to point out that some scientists don’t believe it. Yet another dodge.

DAVID:Wow!!! These are your reference websites, not mine. How many of the titles sites YOU found did you read? The quotes I gave from two in no way supported your view. Didn't waste time digging into your others. Did you? All you did was find likely titles. Lazy. I dug into them.

And what we both found was support for the theory of cellular intelligence! Look at your responses to the first two!
QUOTE: "Everywhere we look, there are ubiquitous conversations among all cells in all organisms. Life might come down to the ability to converse, which is another way of saying life is based on the ability to transfer meaningful biological information."

DAVID: I agree with the quote. Nowhere does He say cells are in and of themselves intelligent.

dhw: Then why is his blog called “cellular intelligence”? How can organisms converse and exchange information if they don’t have the intelligence to communicate with and understand each other?

DAVID: All opinion!

Yes, his opinion is that cells are intelligent.

QUOTE: "…..reveal a level of cellular intelligence that is unrecognised by science and is not amenable to computer analysis."

DAVID: Just my point. We scientists do not recognize it.

Your point was that Shapiro was McClintock’s only current “follower”. The theory is not recognized as a fact, but this author SUPPORTS it! You “didn’t waste time digging into the others”, which apparently proves that none of these scientists advocates the theory. Try this one:

QUOTE: “I was shocked by how smart individual ants and termites are. But even more amazing is the discovery of intelligence in individual cells, including microbes. Everywhere I looked cells were talking to each other, just like brain cells, and these conversations determined biological activity throughout the body, not just in the brain.” And this:

QUOTE: “Cellular intelligence is still with us today and to a lesser degree has evolved along several paths that affect cell function specialization as well as the entire organism and perhaps beyond. This is a relatively new area for evolutionary biologists and warrants much exploration.” And your own quote from last week:

QUOTE: "Perception, memory, valence, learning, decision-making, anticipation, communication – all once thought the preserve of humankind – are found in a wide variety of living things, including bacteria, unicellular eukaryotes, plants, fungi, non-neuronal animals, and animals with simple nervous systems and brains.”
Read the Wikipedia list of references. And yet you claim McClintock has had only one follower!

Common design
DAVID: Life processes are a required first in designs. Body forms are secondary designs. The real continuity is biochemistry. Darwin only knew body form (anatomy). Not confusing.

dhw: All you are saying is that all life forms depend on biochemical processes. How does this explain your theory that humans are directly descended from bacteria, but humans are descended from life forms that had no predecessors?

DAVID: A designer can create gaps in form rather than miniscule tiny steps in form, if he wishes.

Of course he can do whatever he likes. Now please tell us whether you think humans are descended from bacteria or from the Cambrian life forms you think your God created without precursors. And if he created a new line for us, why did he bother to create all the other lines that had no connection with us?

dhw: Do you agree that nobody knows how cells reach the decisions which trigger automatic processes to implement those decisions?

DAVID: I agree we don't have proof. What I see is all the automatic processes produce life automatically, no decision making required.

dhw: We’re not talking about “producing life” but about the manner in which live organisms cope with conditions. And this interaction constantly requires decisions. So do you agree that nobody knows how cells make their decisions?

DAVID: From the outside we must theorize. Kidney cells are in constant control of blood plasma sodium levels second by second: nothing but automaticity between set boundaries.

You always refer to automatic processes that operate when conditions are stable. Intelligence will only be required to invent those processes, and then to correct, defend, adapt, and invent new processes when conditions change. So do you agree that nobody knows how cells make their decisions?

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