Let's study ID (Introduction)

by dhw, Sunday, August 01, 2021, 11:02 (1000 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Until you understand that changes to existing life forms occur as RESPONSES to new conditions (admirably illustrated by your account of how the immune system works) and not as anticipations of conditions not yet known or existing, your interpretation of ID will indeed be Greek to me.

DAVID: You fully do not understand the adaptation of design theory to biological speciation. we are looking at large gaps in the fossil series we see. You stick to the Darwinist view of tiny adaptations to current requirements will lead to speciation. We can't find that 150+ years after Darwin. I started years ago with your approach and left it after my studies. Gould really helped when he described and accepted the gaps, causing him to try puncinc as a theory.

I “fully do not understand” why you have suddenly switched from your theory that your God provides all solutions before the problems occur to the subject of missing fossils and gradualism. First of all, back to your theory: I have coupled adaptations and innovations together, because it is sometimes difficult to draw a line between them. Our prime example has been whale legs changing to whale flippers (adaptation or innovation?). You insist that your God performed an operation on pre-whales BEFORE they entered the water, and that is your so-called “design theory” – that your God either preprogrammed every single adaptation/innovation 3.8 billion years ago, or he kept popping in to perform operations or to give courses for every innovation, lifestyle, natural wonder etc., ranging from whale flippers to the weaverbird’s nest (thank you for the latest "Kalahari" post referring to the latter). My design theory is that pre-whale legs turned into flippers AS A RESULT of the animals using their legs for different purposes, with the various cell communities RESPONDING to the new requirements. I extend these examples to the whole of evolution: it advances through new designs which cope with or exploit new conditions. Gould’s theory has nothing to do with how the flippers and nests are designed, but it explains why there are gaps – because there are long periods of stasis when nothing changes, and speciation only occurs when conditions change. I find this perfectly logical. The time scale of change, however, remains open: how sudden is sudden, how gradual is gradual?

The immune system
dhw:...we are designed to learn about new problems (invaders) and then create/develop new responses (de novo) to new problems. We are not preprogrammed to do so, or offered courses. This autonomous ability of ours may have been designed by your God.

DAVID: The bold is so wrong. Our basic design by God has the cells respond as needed to new invaders.

dhw: Correct. If God exists, he designed the cells in such a way that they would RESPOND to new invaders. Not that they would create new responses before they even knew about the invaders.

DAVID: You really get it!!!

dhw: Yes, I do, and I wish you would acknowledge it. The changes take place IN RESPONSE to the new conditions, not in advance of them. And you can apply this process to the whole of evolution, so please stop telling us that design requires knowledge of future needs.

DAVID: No you don't with this response. At our current level of development our immune system recognizes anything new and can respond. Has nothing to do with how does speciation works?

I propose that the immune system mirrors the process of speciation, whereby the cell communities recognize anything new and RESPOND to the new requirements, as opposed to your God doing a dabble before the new requirements are known. Speciation comes about when changes are made to existing cell structures as they RESPOND to new requirements.

TOMATOES
DAVID: God wanted to produce humans so He evolved them from bacteria in a series of designed steps. God can chose any method He wishes.

dhw: And you continue to ignore the very heart of your theory, which is that BBBhumans plus their food were his one and only purpose, and yet according to you, in countless series of designed steps he “evolved” (= designed) millions of now extinct life forms, econiches (food supplies), strategies, lifestyles, natural wonders etc., the vast majority of which had no connection with humans. And you have no idea why. Please stop playing this dodging game.

DAVID: Can God what He wants or not? Your reply doesn't recognize the type of God I believe in. I don't dodge. I stick to my concept of God hand His abilities. I have always told you your objection is entirely illogical from my viewpoint.

Of course God – if he exists – can do what he wants. And you simply go on ignoring the totally illogical gap in your theory, which is that all he WANTED was humans and their food, but he designed vast numbers of now extinct life forms, econiches, lifestyles, strategies and natural wonders, the huge majority of which had no connection with humans and their food. And you admit that you have no idea why, and then you return to dodging the whole anomaly.