Let's study ID: giraffe plumbing (Introduction)

by dhw, Friday, October 01, 2021, 12:14 (319 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The new phyla without precursors are the gap. Why can't you accept it if your hero Darwin did?

dhw: Of course I accept the gaps! But the Grand Canyon is not the only source of fossils, as you point out below, and there are two problems: 1) the absence of fossils to fill the gaps, and 2) the apparent suddenness of the appearance of some new species. I am proposing that 1) it is unreasonable to expect a full fossil record of every species, and 2) “suddenness” is relative. You say the start of the Cambrian had all sorts of new forms (the article I quoted made it sound rather less prolific), and I asked a simple question: how many millions of years do you regard as being the “start”?

DAVID: The Grand Canyon is just a geology example. The true gap is bolded above in my comment. It is the key point you continue avoid and talk around.

When I say I accept the gaps, and then try to explain them as being due to a possible absence of fossils and also to a misconception of “suddenness” (i.e. there is plenty of time for new phyla to evolve during the Cambrian), I am not avoiding or talking round the subject of the gaps. As regards “suddenness”, I keep asking you how many million years you regard as being the “start” of the Cambrian, because even one million years is a huge period of time – ample for the development of new species once you accept the principle that organisms can change in response to different environments.

DAVID: […] Base your thinking on what is known, not theoretical absences to cover your unwillingness to accept Gould's gaps.

dhw: As I understand it, Gould’s gaps are the long periods of stasis in which species remain unchanged, and instead of Darwin’s gradualism, he argues for sudden bursts of creativity. What is there not to accept?

DAVID: The large changes show new complex designs. That is my point abut gaps.

And I don’t dispute it. You think your God popped in to dabble the changes, and I suggest that intelligent communities may have designed the changes themselves.

DAVID: Cells only potential is to do their assigned jobs.

dhw: “Assigned” in what way? Cells potential is quite clearly to change the jobs they do! How else could evolution have taken place? […]

DAVID: Of course cells have new jobs when God does advanced design.

dhw: So why do you say “cells only potential is to do their assigned jobs” if your God uses the same cells to perform different jobs?

DAVID: Same cells do many things, others just one, all assigned.

Same problem: you have your God preprogramming, manipulating or instructing cells to change, and I suggest that if he exists, he gave them the power to change themselves. Either way, they clearly have potential to do different jobs.

Magic embryology
DAVID: The study fits my theory that God sets up programs early in anticipation of future designs of future evolutionary stages.

dhw: This is another way of saying that the system allows for both stability and flexibility. Stability preserves species, and flexibility allows for the production of new species. Please tell us if by “programs” you mean your God’s 3.8-billion-year-old individual programmes for every single undabbled evolutionary change (plus econiche, natural wonder etc.) for the whole history of life,

DAVID: Answered above. Programs for the future are set in advance.

So either these are the 3.8-billion-year-old programmes for every change throughout life’s history, or every time your God foresees a change in conditions, he pops in and inserts a programme for all the different organisms to cope with or exploit the change (apart from those he doesn’t want to survive). But see below.

Immunity system complexity
DAVID: Immunity appeared during evolution, or there would not have been any evolution. The immune cells have all the instructions they need to meet new invaders.

dhw: […] Please tell us what form these instructions take – a 3.8-billion-year-old library to choose from, or direct dabbling?

DAVID: A baby starts without its own personal antibodies, just those in Mother's colostrum and some general God-given ones. The rest of his life his cells are able to make an entire library of antibodies to all that come along with exceptions like HIV which destroy the ability. From evolution of sapiens, their cells followed fixed instructions to accomplish the tasks. Covid 19 was no unanswerable surprise. The system is more recent in designed evolution than 3.8 byo, and not dabbled based on our knowledge of homo precursors. (dhw’s bolds)

dhw: So if the cells have the ABILITY to create their own library as and when new invaders appear, what “fixed instructions” do they follow? You have now dispensed with a 3.8-billion-year-old programme AND with dabbling. Please answer, or please acknowledge that the cells’ ABILITY to create new antibodies in response to new invasions means that they function autonomously, as opposed to following instructions.

DAVID: The cells have one set of instructions to recognize every new invader and devise antibodies to fit that invader. No thought involved.

But if he didn’t preprogramme them 3.8 billion years ago, and he doesn’t dabble, when and how does he pass each new set of instructions on to the cells?

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