Let's study ID: giraffe plumbing (Introduction)

by David Turell , Friday, October 08, 2021, 23:36 (1140 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Not differently. Don't forget God is a designer. What was the precursor for life? The Cambrian is at a point where God was ready for sexual reproduction to appear a much more complex way to evolve more new organisms. The single cells had been designed with perfected processes to be used in the next stages.

dhw: You have ignored the problem. Previously you have told us that evolution was a continuous process, and your God “evolved” humans in stage after stage from bacteria. Now you tell us that your God created new species with no precursors. Do you believe that we are descended from the new species with no precursors, or from bacteria? Please answer directly, so that we can discuss the implications.

You have jumped into a big nothing. Your definition of continuous means every step followed the the last, but always with obvious precursors. I always say the Cambrian is a gap with no precursors. What have you suddenly discovered? Nothing. God is a designer: life has no precursors (BIG DEAL); the universe has no precursor (BIG DEAL). The Cambrian start all of our current phyla. As before, the background underlying living processes had been established sufficient for the jump to the Cambrian.

Immunity system complexity
DAVID: Every person has an immune system, but some are very weak with poor and therefore deadly responses.

dhw: In other words, they fail to produce the new antibody which is required to fight off the new invader.

DAVID: You are so negative in your responses. No 'fail'. Weak response!!!! Poor new antibody levels.!!!!

dhw: So they fall ill and die, but it’s all positive: their system is weak and can’t produce the necessary new antibodies.

DAVID: No, a weak response is not enough antibodies to eradicate the invader's reproduction rate.

dhw: And that’s supposed to be a positive, is it?

My point which you always deride is some folks are naturally weak. It's standard biology of the bell curve.

DAVID: I'll try again as you totally misunderstand: foreign invader supplies its own proteins to study. The cell recognizes them and adds killer proteins to a subset of the invader's makeup. Each antibody is therefore new and added to the library for future reference.

dhw: Now you’re talking sense. Each antibody is new, i.e. it adds new details and adds to the library of antibodies. And since you have informed us that once the system is in place, whereby cells are able to build up their own library without any intervention from your God, they act autonomously in working out what new details to add in order to defeat the new invader. There are no “instructions” for each and every antibody. There is only the process of autonomous recognition (God doesn’t do it for them) and autonomous, creative response (God doesn’t do it for them). How is this possible without thought?

DAVID: Because the cells don't think.

dhw: That is your belief. Please don’t state it as a fact

You can't tell me they do.

DAVID: They automatically recognize non-self, and automatically fit a protein shape to attach to the invader with a killing segment which in bacteria attacks their membrane integrity or to disrupt a metabolic process.

dhw: You are simply repeating your belief that it’s “automatic”, and are totally ignoring the implications of your own description of the process. Cells recognize NEW invaders and produce NEW antibodies to fight them. And according to you, they do this without any intervention from your God. These two actions require COGNITION!

Automatic cognition. They know self from non-self automatically. They know what is foreign. You get a splinter in skin. Inflammation always happens, but here only you can solve the problem with your tweezer. As a full invasion the same similar inflammatory process always happens in the same way.

DAVID: The process is the same for all invaders and the resultant antibody is added to the library for future reuse if necessary. The process is always the same process from birth onward. That is why no thought is necessary. Each baby comes with the process intact to build a future library.

dhw: You keep repeating what I told you. The process is the same, but the process entails producing ADDITIONS to the library which cells build up AUTONOMOUSLY. You can argue that your God set up the process, but the details change from one invasion to the next, and cells must tailor their response to each new threat. You have agreed that your God does not do it for them. You parrot words like “automatically” and “God’s instructions”, and simply ignore the obvious fact that recognizing something new and then producing something new to counter it requires thought.

If the producti9n of antibodies always follows the same biochemical process and uses the same killer syz's, it is always automatic. What they add to kill or neutralize is always the same.
They know non-self and they know the answer before using it.