David's theory of evolution: Stephen Talbott's view III (Evolution)

by dhw, Wednesday, July 01, 2020, 11:04 (11 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Intelligent design always implies a designer exists for direct design.

dhw: But it does not imply that a designer directly designed every species and natural wonder. A designer could also have designed a mechanism whereby organisms autonomously did their own designing, and that is what Talbott is advocating and what you refuse even to consider.

DAVID: I've said Talbott is your mirror image. You've just illustrated it. IDer's propose direct design.

The fact that Talbott and I think alike and that IDers propose direct design is no reason to reject the (theistic) theory that your God designed a mechanism enabling organisms to do their own designing. That is also “intelligent design”!

DAVID: We IDer's see the metaphorical wall as yours.

dhw: Then you have completely misunderstood Talbott (and me). Look at this quote:

QUOTE: This in no way conflicts with any convictions you may hold regarding a transcendent creative power sustaining the universe. It is merely to say that what we observe on earth is a power of life immanent in the organisms around us. Presumably you believe not only in the transcendence, but also in the immanence of the creative power.(dhw’s bold)

dhw: Just like Darwin, Talbott is telling you that his theory does not exclude God! There is no wall – he remains open-minded. Walls are created by those who have fixed beliefs.

DAVID: All agreed. You and Talbott are twins. It still revolve about chance or design and both of you stay neutral on the choice. ID folks and I don't.

And so you continue to miss the point. It is not a question of chance v. design! It is a question of what drives evolution. From the theist’s point of view: did God directly create every life form, econiche, natural wonder etc. – as you claim – or did he create an autonomous mechanism to do its own designing? Chance doesn’t come into it. This is a theistic debate between creationism (direct design) and evolution (but not Darwin’s version, because intelligent design replaces random mutations) as your God’s method of achieving whatever may have been his purpose.


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