David's theory of evolution: Stephen Talbott's view III (Evolution)

by David Turell , Tuesday, June 30, 2020, 19:08 (1605 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: So they reject his concept of design by an immanent creative power, do they, and opt for your “God did it” by direct design?

DAVID: Intelligent design always implies a designer exists for direct design.

dhw: But it does not imply that a designer directly designed every species and natural wonder. A designer could also have designed a mechanism whereby organisms autonomously did their own designing, and that is what Talbott is advocating and what you refuse even to consider.

I've said Talbott is your mirror image. You've just illustrated it. IDer's propose direct design.

DAVID: Talbott actually presents a beautiful set of essays in full support of design. That is why I have always presented his ideas. He supports my thoughts. I just don't have a wall in my thinking.

dhw: Talbott clearly does NOT support your thoughts. Yes, he supports design, but ‘to say that “natural selection did it” is just as much a refusal to investigate the actual life of organisms as to say “God did it.”’ You have a solid brick wall in your interpretation of Chapters 1 and 2 of life. Chapter 1 begins with an unknown and unknowable, eternal, sourceless and all-powerful conscious mind. You cannot see beyond that. Chapter 2 has that mind confined to a single purpose and a single, illogical means of fulfilling that purpose. You cannot see beyond that either.

DAVID: I don't try to. I don't care if Talbott stops short as you do. That is why I offered him in this series of entries. Look in the mental mirror and you will see him. We IDer's see the metaphorical wall as yours.

Then you have completely misunderstood Talbott (and me). Look at this quote:

QUOTE: This in no way conflicts with any convictions you may hold regarding a transcendent creative power sustaining the universe. It is merely to say that what we observe on earth is a power of life immanent in the organisms around us. Presumably you believe not only in the transcendence, but also in the immanence of the creative power.(dhw’s bold)

dhw: Just like Darwin, Talbott is telling you that his theory does not exclude God! There is no wall – he remains open-minded. Walls are created by those who have fixed beliefs.

All agreed. You and Talbott are twins. It still revolve about chance or design and both of you stay neutral on the choice. ID folks and I don't.