David's theory of evolution: James A. Shapiro's view (Evolution)

by dhw, Thursday, December 26, 2019, 08:12 (1792 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The argument over evolution is the necessity for a designer on my part and your every other thing possible on your side, although you avoid chance. Considering the biological complexity I think design is logical.

dhw: Firstly, you keep telling me that Shapiro’s theory does not support mine, and I keep reminding you of the quotes that show the theories are the same. That was the point of the comment above, which you have rather ungraciously ignored. Secondly, you know perfectly well that I accept the design argument, allow for your God as designer, but am focusing on the way evolution works, whether there is a God or not.

DAVID: We can both agree the study of evolution is fascinating. Shapiro's theories extrapolated from bacterial study are simply suggestive theories. He has no more idea how speciation occurs than we do.

I keep agreeing that it is a theory (what is the difference between a theory and a suggestive theory?), just like your theory that there is a God and that your God designed the universe and every life form for the sole purpose of producing H. sapiens. So…firstly back to my original complaint: please acknowledge that Shapiro’s theory and mine are the same.

DAVID: You wish for organisms doing self-design for the next step instead of a designer doing it. Perfect definition of an agnostic who refuses to accept the logic of the need for a designer, who therefore must exist.

And secondly, I do not “wish” for anything. I find Shapiro’s theory very plausible, and you know as well as I do that it leaves open the possibility that there is a designer who designed the intelligent cell. The dispute here is over the logic of your personal interpretation of your God’s intentions and methods, not over the logic of his existence.

DAVID: Once again the so-called cell intelligence is an assumption from studies which watch out side the cell. The only evidence for cells combining to create intelligence is neurons in a brain.

dhw: That is not a bad starting point for the argument that there is such a thing as cellular intelligence. Bacterial intelligence is another useful starting point for the argument that if single cell organisms are autonomously intelligent (as opposed to your God having planted “onboard instructions” in the very first cells for all undabbled bacterial decisions for the rest of time), then single cells that combine their intelligences may also be intelligent. Another useful starting point for the theory is the fact that despite your constant insistence that bacteria were indeed preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago for all their decisions, you admit that you have a 50/50 chance of being wrong.

DAVID: The 50/50 is why we continue to debate. I have my side and you have yours. We will not agree.

True, but at least there are lots of useful, logical starting-points for Shapiro’s theory of evolution, whereas your own “suggestive theory” of evolution (NOT your theory of design) requires the abandonment of all human logic.

dhw: Thank you for the articles on “magic embryology” and “immunity complexity”. I agree that these mechanisms could not have arisen by chance and may be taken as evidence of design. We needn’t repeat the options concerning how the designing might have been done!

DAVID: Thank you and truce. And my theory accepts God who designed a cell to act automatically intelligently.

Let’s not equivocate: Your theory suggests a God who preprogrammed automatons with all the answers to all the problems they would meet for the rest of time, plus all the innovations that would lead to every single undabbled species, econiche, lifestyle and natural wonder. Mine suggests that autonomously intelligent cells (possibly designed by your God) worked out the answers and designed all the innovations themselves.

Under “Biological complexity”:
QUOTE: In humans, the 20 members of the Rho family are scattered on the inner surface of cell membranes and act like small switches. When a signal from outside or inside the cell activates them, they stimulate other proteins to force the cytoskeleton to add or remove parts to its framework.

DAVID: The cells' genome contain information/instructions to initiate these automatic protein molecules to react with each other producing cellular skeletons. No thought involved.

The basic process underlying all intelligent activity is a decision followed by automatic reactions as the rest of the “body” or, in this case, the rest of the cells implement the decision. The human equivalent here would be you telling us that because the legs automatically obey the instruction from the brain to run, there is no thought involved. I know you do not accept the theory that cells have the equivalent of a brain, but my point is that you always pick on the automatic actions as if they proved there was no thought directing them.