David's theory of evolution: James A. Shapiro's view (Evolution)

by David Turell , Monday, December 23, 2019, 15:54 (1795 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: My theory of evolution is that God ran it based on ID theory. Adler makes no point about that, but that our existence proves God. You accept dibs and dabs of ID and Adler

dhw: Yes I do, and I keep repeating that the issue under discussion is NOT the existence of God, but how evolution works. In our last exchange, you wrote: “You are the one stretching cellular logical responses to stimuli and requirements onto the ability to create new species. Shapiro and the others do not say that to support you.” I then reproduced all your own quotes from Shapiro to show that this is precisely what he proposes. I hope you will withdraw your remark.

The argument over evolution is the necessity for a designer on my part and your every other thing possible on your side, although you avoid chance. Considering the biological complexity I think design is logical.

DAVID: What you seem not to see is bacteria are live-on-their-own organisms. Of course their reactions look and seem intelligent. They were originally created by God with all of the Shapiro-discovered attributes in order to survive on their own.

dhw: Thank you. The attributes Shapiro describes are those of autonomous intelligence, and I have no objections to the suggestion that there may be a God who designed them. My objection is to the contradiction that follows:

DAVID: This is why the ID folks celebrate Shapiro's findings. They and I see Shapiro as supporting the need for a designer. These are onboard instructions in single cells from the designer.

dhw: Yes to the designer theory. However, it is YOUR theory that the attributes of cognition etc. are not signs of autonomous intelligence, but on the contrary bacteria are automatons and all their decisions throughout the course of history have been preprogrammed in the form of “onboard instructions”. (Please note: if single-celled organisms are indeed autonomous and intelligent, it is perfectly logical to assume that when cells combine, they combine their intelligences.)

Once again the so-called cell intelligence is an assumption from studies which watch out side the cell. The only evidence for cells combining to create intelligence is neurons in a brain.

DAVID: There must be 10-15 ID scientists who use this approach that I have read. If you did a little real ID reading/studying you might finally recognize the positions I come from. I think you have never researched ID on your own. How complete are your own studies?

Yet again: The argument does not revolve around the “need for a designer”, the logic of which I accept, but around the way in which evolution works.

But that is exactly the point. You accept the logic and then kick it out. I and ID demand logically that designer is the way it works. You want cell committees to do the job. I've pointed out that most multicellular cells have specifically programmed duties. Only stem or germ cells could possibly do your bidding by using Shapiro's DNA altering ability. But the gaps in the fossil record require large changes so we are back to cells creating complex designs. Evolution works because a designer does the job.

DAVID: All his book does is tout his discoveries which should be touted as great additions to our knowledge. He is a great scientist as my quoting him shows. It is obvious you have no idea of my thought patterns as I relate to the presence of God.

dhw: And this great scientist has proposed a theory of “natural genetic engineering” based on his findings and those of others. Please do not pretend that this theory involves anything other than cellular intelligence as the designer of “evolutionary novelty”, i.e. speciation. I am all too aware of your thought patterns, and have reproduced them umpteen times. I will continue this part of the discussion on the thread that deals directly with your theory.