David's theory of evolution (Evolution)

by David Turell , Thursday, October 10, 2019, 21:08 (1869 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I do not reject your argument that design/complexity provides evidence for the existence of God, which embraces Adler’s example of the human mind. But you have repeatedly admitted that Adler does NOT argue that H. sapiens was your always-in-total-control God’s intent from the beginning, that for some unknown reason he decided not to fulfil that intent for 3.X billion years and therefore had to preprogramme or dabble every single innovation, lifestyle and natural wonder in life’s history as interim goals in order to cover the time before starting on the fulfilment of his one and only goal. And I doubt very much that Adler would tell us this theory is perfectly logical provided we do not try to apply human logic, and that any alternative to this theory must be wrong because it entails “humanizing” God, although God “very well could think like us”. (dhw’s bold)

DAVID: [Adler] is part of my reasoning that God is in charge. He recognizes our vast difference when you constantly try to smudge it.

dhw: I don’t smudge the vast difference (see the “consciousness” thread), and I don’t see the point in your harping on about Adler and totally ignoring the above list of incongruities which he never discusses.

DAVID: Yes, you do. You have consciousness evolving from earlier states.

dhw: You persist in trying to distinguish between conscious and consciousness by saying that our fellow animals are conscious but only humans have consciousness. You are making a mockery of language. Only humans have extreme degrees of consciousness in the form of self-awareness, conceptualisation, creative imagination etc. The fact that I believe these evolved from earlier states of consciousness does not in any way minimize the “vast difference”, and it is no defence of the logical incongruities bolded above.

You are calling Adler a poor philosopher. I'm still with him. The 'vast difference' is all that counts. I have agreed that monkeys have a smidgen in that it is obvious they have some sense of what other monkeys are thinking (theory of mind) but smidgens is all they have.

DAVID: […] You can propose all you wish about God, while having no way of proving you might be even slightly correct.

Dhw: […] You complain that my different proposals, all of which you acknowledge to be logical if we apply human reasoning, can’t be proved, and I am pointing out that your guess, which requires abandoning human reasoning, can’t be proved either.

DAVID: And you forget human logic does not explain God. Again keep it simple: I believe God created/ran evolution and the history exposes what He did, not why.

dhw; The fact that human logic does not explain God is one reason why I remain agnostic, but this particular discussion is not about the existence of God but about your fixed belief in a theistic theory which you can only defend by telling us that we must abandon human logic because you know he doesn’t think like us although “he very well could think like us”. You also insist on telling us why he created what he did, his one and only purpose having been to create H. sapiens, although for reasons unknown he decided to spend 3.X billion years creating the non-human evolutionary bush instead. Meanwhile you reject any alternative which has your God creating evolution but which offers different reasons why he created what he did; you agree that these are humanly logical but you reject them because they make him think like a human, even though – once again – “he very well could think like us”.

I reject your illogical approach (in bold above) to God, because I simply say God created everything and history therefore tells the story. You simply wonder why He was so patient, and extend the idea that He should have gotten to the evolution of humans sooner. Remember I start with God as the driver of all. I understand you question that. You have accepted at times that if God ran evolution, He obviously was in change, but then you never reach my final conclusion and detour into an irrational side road of why did He wait? .