David's theory of evolution: James A. Shapiro's view (Evolution)

by dhw, Wednesday, January 15, 2020, 16:01 (204 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: He produced a proper scientific presentation of a review at the Royal society without the stretched theory.

dhw: So, to repeat the comment you were answering, please provide evidence that his theory is confined to bacteria, that I have distorted his theory, and that he has changed his mind. And please explain how “Living Organisms Regularly Facilitate Their Own Evolution” can mean anything other than the proposal that the cell communities of which living organisms are composed facilitate their own evolution. That IS his theory, except that he doesn’t use the term “cell communities”!

DAVID: Agreed. I know his theory is extrapolated from his very thorough bacterial studies. I've repeated it over and over. I know you have accepted it as it avoids God.

I have repeated over and over that his theory must have been extrapolated from his bacterial studies plus the research carried out by other experts in the field of microbiology. I have not “accepted it”, because I accept – as I’m sure Shapiro does – that it is not proven. But I find it considerably more convincing than your own illogical theory. It is nonsense to say that the theory avoids God, since it is perfectly possible to believe that if God exists, this was his evolutionary method. It simply avoids lumbering your God with the irreconcilable purpose, ability and method you impose on him.

dhw: Every multicellular body is an example of multiple symbiosis, as different types of cell cooperate in a community of communities, with each one playing a unique role. You will no doubt argue that all of them were preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago or God came down and dabbled them, as presumably you think he did with the sponge, the bacterium and the virus. Another possibility is that your God gave them the wherewithal to do their own designing in the process Shapiro calls “natural genetic engineering”.

DAVID: Weird comparison. Symbiosis means free-living organisms have given up some of their individuality, and have modified their genes to fit. Each individual must fit the changes exactly with the others. In this case like juggling three balls in the air by three folks to get the right result. Magically, multicellular organisms come organized that way by DNA instructions, no juggling. Designed by God.

Of course they “come organized” that way NOW. How do you think multicellular organisms came into being in the first place? I propose that free-living organisms gave up some of their individuality and modified their genes to fit into a single, interdependent community. The same thing must happen with every single innovation, but by now you have communities that are no longer free-living. Nevertheless, every single cell in every community, and every single community of cells has to “fit the changes exactly with the others”. There are millions of cells juggling balls in the air to get the right result. You say they “come organized” because you believe that 3.8 billion years ago your God provided the first living cells with a programme for every undabbled symbiosis in the history of life. Shapiro suggests that the cells facilitate their own evolution. I would add that this may be reflected by the manner in which whole organisms also facilitate their own symbioses.

Under “brain complexity”:
QUOTE: "In theory, almost any imaginable computation might be performed by one neuron with enough dendrites, each capable of performing its own nonlinear operation.
In the recent Science paper, the researchers took this idea one step further: They suggested that a single dendritic compartment might be able to perform these complex computations all on its own
."

Oh good heavens, couldn’t this mean that a single cell of any kind, e.g. a stem cell (not to mention a community of cells) might be capable of working out complex computations “all on its own”, i.e. without a 3.8-billion-year-old programme or a divine dabble?


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