David's theory of evolution: James A. Shapiro's view (Evolution)

by David Turell , Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 14:54 (1745 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 15:02

DAVID: The dinos could not handle the major environmental worldwide changes. God knew all the major general environmental events: ice ages, appearance of oxygen, asteroid strikes if major, as He evolved Earth for life's arrival and thereafter. I'm trying to get you to recognize every minor tornado or flood is a result of his activity, but is beneath His advanced notice. Your approach humanizes him, as usual. > [/b]

“God knew about” does not answer the question, which is: did he himself CONTROL/PREPROGRAMME THE ENVIRONMENTAL CHANGES which, If not, how did he know about them (crystal ball?) to enable his advanced planning? Dabbling suggests responding to or creating new conditions not already programmed 3.8 billion years ago, which in turn suggests that he did NOT know everything right from the start, but learned or changed his plans as he went along.

Please read my above now bolded, the reason for dabbles.

dhw: Why should your God not behave in a logically understandable way, especially when you agree he probably “has similar thought patterns and emotions”?

My quote, bolded, as usual out of context: we do not know His reasons for His actions or purposes and may not follow human thought patterns, but we can be sure He thinks logically as we do. He is not human, and you approach Him as if He were human..

dhw: For the nth time, my theory if true DOES explain the gaps (intelligent minds can innovate), and you have agree that your God may well have human characteristics, so your “humanizing” is irrelevant to my alternatives.

DAVID: What Shapiro observed was bacteria have the ability to edit DNA, nothing more, as a reaction to changed stimuli. They were created knowing they needed that ability to b e free living organisms.

dhw: I like “free living”, and of course they have the ability to change their DNA. That is what enables them to cope with countless environments and new threats (and opportunities). And yes, Shapiro – together with many other scientists - has studied their behaviour and concluded that the changes they make are the result of an autonomous intelligence. But you, while acknowledging that these experts have a 50/50 chance of being right, insist that you know better, and they are 100% wrong.

You complain when I won't accept your theory, and you won't accept mine. We debate, differ.

DAVID: As for the need for a designer your quote today fits: "This is a prime example of the case for design and a designer." And then you as usual run to simple cells to do the job. Not capable, just wishful theorizing.

dhw: Of course I acknowledge the case for a designer. Otherwise I would be an atheist. But I do not accept the case for a designer who only designs automatons. With my theist hat on, I propose that my designer God designed the intelligent cells which in turn designed their own adaptations and innovations. Why is this theorizing more “wishful” than the theory that your God only created automatons?

DAVID: The complex advanced organisms need for change evolve across large gaps in form and function as we see across the gaps in the fossil record. The sudden appearance of the multitude of Cambrian animals is a complete refutation of your theory. These animals appeared without the appropriate precursors. Your theory describes changes in precursors and requires precursors. I await your thoughts!

dhw: And there was me thinking you believed in common descent. You should have told us from the start that you were a Creationist and not an evolutionist.

I've told you from the beginning I am a theistic evolutionist. God creates our evolution. The ID folks don't like me, as I keep bringing in a God they like to hide. With our 'theistic hat' on you are the same.

dhw: My answer is precisely the same as it has been ever since you raised the problem of gaps. That a major change in the environment (some folk think it was an increase in oxygen) triggered the Cambrian Explosion,

Trigger means 'cause', remember? Oxygen increase only allows the possibility. The trigger is elsewhere.

dhw: and the intelligent cell communities of which all organisms are made – theist version: God designed the intelligent cell – found themselves in a new environment which presented them with new ways of using their bodies to establish new ways of improving their chances of survival. In short, intelligent minds can invent, and just as we know bacteria can edit their DNA in order to adapt, multicellular organisms can edit their DNA in order to innovate. You don’t believe this theory, which is your right. I don’t accept the biblical version of separate creation, but you do. That is also your right.

Exactly our difference.