slime mold decisions: begins to study loners (Introduction)

by dhw, Thursday, May 28, 2020, 11:47 (1638 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Not knowing exactly how the bees figured it out with God's help doesn't remove the point I made above. Obviously, God might have manipulated the genome so bees had a new instinct. I really doubt He appeared and gave lessons. Why didn't you accept that genomic point when I made it yesterday? To advance bee intelligence! Same old tired agenda.(dhw’s bold)

dhw: Thank you for agreeing that bees act intelligently.

DAVID: I didn't. The tired agenda is yours pushing intelligence that doesn't exist. God helps them to act intelligently.

I asked you how he helped. You dismissed the idea that he gave them lessons, and suggested that he dabbled with their genome. I assumed your comment meant that this was in order to advance bee intelligence. How else would fiddling with their genome enable them to observe, remember and communicate the fact that a bitten leaf produced an early flowering?

dhw: If you think he dabbled with their genome in order to make them more intelligent than they were before they bit the leaves, that’s up to you. But we can explain all the natural wonders and strategies if (theistic version) we assume that your God endowed cells with intelligence right from the start, instead of this non-stop dabbling with the genome, and that the cell communities which make up every multicellular organism used their God-given intelligence to perform their wonders.

DAVID: Thank you for bringing in God to explain the intelligent actions you see. That way you avoid explaining how intelligence could arise naturally without Him.

I have always brought God in as the possible inventor of cellular intelligence! The disagreement between us is over your insistence that your God either preprogrammed or dabbled every single life form, lifestyle, strategy and natural wonder, whereas I propose that (theistic version) he gave them the intelligence to do their own designing.

DAVID: You miss the point yet again. Only repeated observations will lead to a recognition of cause and effect with bitten leaf and subsequent early flowering. And that requires a correlating conception by a mind capable of it.

Little Miss Bee remembered biting a leaf on a plant which flowered early. She mentioned it to her buddy bees, and they tried the trick on different plants, and it worked. Your comment on neutrinos involved understanding how things work. Bees would not sit there puzzling over why plants flower earlier. The trick works, and that’s it. Observation, memory and communication – all attributes of the intelligence which you think your God can advance with a dabble although it doesn’t actually exist.

Under “ants control aggression”:

dhw: If God exists, he might have dabbled with their genome each time in order to “advance their intelligence”, but I reckon it’s more likely that intelligence was built into the first cells and inherited in different forms by all the different combinations of cells that led to all the different life forms.

DAVID: Ants are not human.

We agree! Hence the bold above.

DAVID: You still want oodles of intelligence everywhere, but please explain then how it arises naturally as life evolves naturally, no God ever involved.

Because (theistic version) God endowed the first cells with intelligence, and this was inherited in different forms by all the different combinations of cells that led to all the different life forms. As above and about to be repeated below.

DAVID: As an agnostic you keep explaining it both ways but only one way is correct, but that keeps you comfortable.. Intelligence always involves mental activity. Try being uncomfortable and pick a side.

What “both ways”? Instead of your God preprogramming or dabbling everything, I have him endowing the first cells with intelligence, and this was inherited in different forms….see bolds above.