Natures wonders: ants and other insects farm (Introduction)

by David Turell , Wednesday, May 20, 2020, 17:49 (1646 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: You have expanded my proposed theory that God allows some aspects of evolution to run among while He watches, to stretch it to all of evolution. Your mamby-pamby version of God is not OK with me, ever! My God has His purpose guide Him all the time.

dhw: So does mine. Please stop assuming that your God could not possibly have had any purpose other than the one you impose on him, and could not possibly be anything other than all-powerful and all-knowing and all-controlling. And please don’t tell us that “Any evolved process God set in motion is under his control, since he can let it continue or stop it as he wishes”, cannot possibly mean the process of evolution.

All powerful or not is a human conception of Him. To each his own. As for the bold, why not?

DAVID: I go back to 'The Difference of Man and the Difference it Makes'. [..] It is obvious you cannot accept the degree of our specialness characterized by our special degree of consciousness, as you constantly try to downplay it.

dhw: I have always accepted our specialness, but it does not answer the above bolded question. You keep trying to divert attention from this aspect of life’s history, no doubt because you admit that you "have no idea" (I quote) why your God would choose such a method.

Our glaring difference is you never accept the degree of specialness I do, or its theological import. You indulge in theistic lip service as follows: I don't need to know why God chose to evolve us. I accept that was His choice, but you don't. See more below.

DAVID: "At one point, not that long ago, megafauna were everywhere. Humans killed off most, but this is an example where God might have allowed this to happen. I assume God allowed these giants to appear, perhaps thought better of it, let humans do part of the job for Him, and took care of the rest. This is still tight control over evolution as God is constantly watching."

dhw: As with your econiche argument, you insist on limiting yourself to the short time we humans have been around. What about the millions of life forms that lived and died long before humans were on the scene? May I please assume that you “assume God allowed these giants” and their econiches to appear? That is to say, he did not design them but let them “simply evolve”. And may I ask what kind of mechanism you think would have allowed them to “simply evolve”, as opposed to their being designed?

DAVID: Glad you asked. Human designed miniature horses, 34 inches at the shoulder, formed by careful selective breeding, are really horses and can be bred to the normal-sized. I am simply imagining the reverse could occur naturally with God watching. The giant kangaroo was all kangaroo, not a new species. And mammoths mastodons were an elephant variation. I can imagine theories just as you do, but really different species must be designed as in the whale series. To repeat to avoid your constant misinterpretations: variations on body type themes may simply appear, real remarkable changes must be designed. And God carefully closely watches all and controls as He wishes.

dhw: You “assume God allowed these giants to appear, perhaps thought better of it…” So why do you assume that your God did NOT allow past giants and all other life forms to appear, and then thought better of it and maybe organized mass extinctions to get rid of them? And as always, why do you assume that he directly designed all those millions of extinct life forms when all he wanted to directly design was H. sapiens? Once you acknowledge the principle that your God can allow things to happen and then think better of it, you can’t just pick and choose which ones you want him to allow! Especially when you profess to believe in common descent. You wrote of “ANY evolved process”. What evolved process could be more evolved than evolution? It makes perfect sense when applied to life’s history (allowing for dabbles when he “thought better of it”), as you have always acknowledged. You can’t even complain that it “humanizes him” (other than your own insertion of “thinking better of it”)! Your only reason for rejecting it seems to be that it is different from your own pet theory about God’s nature, purpose and method.

What I reject from your thought patterns about God is in your humanized version, which is always present, God allows evolution to happen without guidelines. My God always speciate new advanced species, and the type of evolution He allows on its own is species variation, no more. What I constantly object to in the discussions is the way you always manage to stretch interpretations of my ideas to somehow fit your weird theories, and when I object, you claim
I have retracted a position that you have invented. The bold is your constantly repeated mantra that will not admit God has a right to choose His method of creation, and when called on it you will agree He has the right to choose. And turn right around and ask me 'why' for the ten thousandth time. Will you every recognize we envision two very different Gods? Your so-called theism is God-lite. And of course, I am trapped in using some humanizing terms because we don't have any others to employ. You complain about it, but you know that full well.