Natures wonders: seabirds food finding flight patterns (Introduction)

by David Turell , Friday, April 17, 2020, 18:35 (1679 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The issue you raise is can birds know there is a possibility of death? That is too deep thinking for birds. So the answer is they recognize if they can get food, no more. Not much thought involved, but you want every lesser animal to have lots of thoughts. Why?

dhw: That is not the issue I raise! Nor did I say I wanted every animal to think deeply or have lots of thoughts! The only question here is not the degree of intelligence, but whether birds are intelligent or not. You avoid the point about trial and error, which is a clear indication that birds try things out, learn from their mistakes, and eventually in this case come up with a highly intelligent solution to the problem of finding enough food to survive on. So how can you possibly say this whole process is NOT a sign of intelligence?

This is a discussion of how this came about. It is just discovered with no known history. We do not know if it evolved from a previous ancestor who had a designed flight pattern. Trial and error means most of a flock died, before the flock realized that it worked. Like speciation we do not know how instincts developed. Like the weaverbird they could well be designed. Still no sign of much intelligent realization about a possible feeding process.

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DAVID: You want exactitude. I don't have it, but I would guess God knew viruses were part of His evolution and gave us the brains to handle it

dhw: What do you mean by “knew they were part of his evolution”? Either he designed them or he didn’t. Which do you think it is? And do please take a guess as to why he might want to test us.

DAVID: I have no way of knowing if He wanted to test us. He created viruses because they help in evolution. (He gave us the brain to fight the bad ones; God's simple foresight.

Addendum. See today's entry on giant viruses. The bold is an example of your strange interpretations of what I write. Of course He knows what he does!!! As designer, of course He designs.

dhw: First you confirm that in your view he wants to test us, and then when I ask you why, you say you don’t know if he wants to test us! In fact, you don’t know any of what you state with such exactitude, and when I question it, you complain that I want exactitude!

You push me to explain what God does. All I can do is make intelligent guesses based on my view of God, which is directly opposed to your humanized version.

dhw: Why my problem? You made the exact statement about your God’s intention to test us. […] If you only want to make exact statements but not discuss their implications, our forum has no purpose.

DAVID: You are complaining that my answer is not enough for you. But you are the one raising the problem issue. We don't know if God can make life work perfectly, because we know it does not. The bold is the usual twist of my underlying thought. The real thought is: God knew some bacteria and viruses would cause problems. Therefore He gave us a huge brain with a giant conceptual area with which to work and solve problems.

dhw: You lurch from one inconsistency to another. One moment he’s testing us, and the next you don’t know if he is - let alone why. One moment your God is all powerful and can do what he wants when he wants, but now all of a sudden we don’t know if he can make life work perfectly. You’ve now committed yourself to saying that he deliberately designed the bad viruses, and your logic then tells you that he gave us great brains so that even if they killed us off and caused us huge suffering, eventually we would find a way to kill them off too. And if I ask you why he designed the baddies in the first place, that’s my problem.

This reply is again another demand for exactitude about God's actions. Note whqt I just wrote above:

"Addendum. See today's entry on giant viruses. The bold is an example of your strange interpretations of what I write. Of course He knows what he does!!! As designer, of course He designs."

dhw: Meanwhile, in spite of your statement earlier that God “allowed” the virus to evolve, you ignore my follow-up: “are these imperfections the result of mechanisms left to organize themselves?” Such a possibility would save you tying yourself in all these intellectual knots!

Again from above: We don't know if God can make life work perfectly, because we know it does not."

God designs but we know not all the processes of life are always perfect; think of congenital errors. The theists I read on ID all agree God's imperfect designs and allowing evil are an atheists' problem not theirs, or mine.