Free Will: Egnor shows true Libet conclusions (Introduction)
Libet himself said he did not refute free will:
https://mindmatters.ai/2021/02/a-reader-asks-does-neuroscience-disprove-free-will/
"He found that there was a brain wave from the cortex about a half second before the person was aware of making the decision. Libet initially interpreted this as refuting free will — it seemed that our “decisions” are determined beforehand by physical processes in the brain and we merely experience the illusion of deciding freely.
"But Libet was an excellent scientist so he tested the hypothesis that free will isn’t real by asking the volunteers to occasionally veto their decision after making it — to decide to push the button but to then immediately decide not to. He found that there was no brain wave associated with the veto — i.e., the veto was not from the brain. Thus, the veto was immaterial and independent of brain processes, and it corresponded to free will. Libet concluded that our decisions consist of two parts: a preconscious “temptation” and a conscious acceptance or veto. The temptation was associated with brain activity and might in that sense be considered involuntary (even that is problematic). But the acceptance or veto of the temptation was not determined by brain activity and appeared to be immaterial (i.e. spiritual) in origin. Libet quipped that he hadn’t proven free will per se, but he had proved “free won’t.”
***
"Libet’s research with vetoing decisions has not been tested by other researchers. Research that purports to show determinism to be true is invalid because the neurobiological correlates of vetoing a decision have not been studied since Libet. The current state of neuroscience is that free will is clearly supported by the science.
"The philosophical perspective is that (in my view) the most cogent model of the soul is that of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas. In their model, called hylemorphic dualism, there are two types of mental states — sensitive and rational. Sensitive states are sensation, perception, imagination, memory, and sensitive appetites (emotions), among others. These are tightly linked to matter and may be considered material powers. Human beings also have rational mental states, which are the powers of the intellect and the will. These abstract powers are immaterial — they are not caused by matter — and thus the will is not determined by the brain.
"The Aristotelian–Thomistic model fits Libet’s research very nicely — the material “temptation” comes from the sensitive material powers of the soul and the acceptance or veto comes from the immaterial will."
Comment: It is strange that no research has been done on Libet's second observation that an inhibitory decision has no EEG spike. As I view the soul drives the brain, there should be no spike if no action is to be taken. The delay after a go decision spike has been explained as a preparatory pause by the brain.
Complete thread:
- Free will and wiring -
David Turell,
2014-04-03, 15:39
- Free will and wiring -
David Turell,
2014-04-03, 22:33
- Free will: reasoned article -
David Turell,
2014-05-19, 15:39
- Free will: reasoned article -
romansh,
2014-05-19, 16:44
- Free will: reasoned article -
David Turell,
2014-05-19, 17:56
- Free will: brain activity -
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2014-06-10, 15:11
- Free will: brain activity -
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2014-06-10, 15:32
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2014-06-10, 17:17
- Free will: new neurologic studies -
David Turell,
2014-06-24, 23:53
- Free will: new neurologic studies -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-06-25, 11:20
- Free will: new neurologic studies -
GateKeeper,
2014-06-25, 14:24
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
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2014-10-18, 01:34
- Free will: Sci Am survey -
David Turell,
2015-01-16, 00:10
- Free will: Sci Am survey -
romansh,
2015-01-16, 01:54
- Free will: Sci Am survey -
David Turell,
2015-01-16, 05:00
- Free will: Sci Am survey -
Balance_Maintained,
2015-01-16, 15:41
- Free will: Sci Am survey - romansh, 2015-01-16, 20:03
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2015-01-16, 15:41
- Free will: Sci Am survey -
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2015-01-16, 05:00
- Free will: Sci Am survey -
romansh,
2015-01-16, 01:54
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
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2015-01-16, 18:51
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
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2015-01-17, 00:59
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-17, 17:25
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
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2015-01-17, 21:38
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-18, 01:34
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
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2015-01-18, 05:50
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-18, 16:11
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2015-01-18, 19:38
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-18, 21:16
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
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2015-01-19, 00:36
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2015-01-25, 16:05
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-12, 15:42
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-13, 14:02
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-13, 18:01
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-15, 18:24
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-15, 18:43
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-16, 19:40
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2015-02-16, 21:23
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-17, 21:38
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2015-02-18, 02:06
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2015-02-18, 19:26
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2015-02-18, 20:18
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
dhw,
2015-02-19, 18:03
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2015-02-19, 19:53
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-20, 12:33
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2015-02-20, 14:36
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2015-02-21, 17:52
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2015-02-21, 17:52
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-20, 14:36
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-20, 12:33
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-19, 19:53
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
dhw,
2015-02-19, 18:03
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-18, 20:18
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
dhw,
2015-02-18, 19:26
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
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2015-02-18, 02:06
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dhw,
2015-02-17, 21:38
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George Jelliss,
2015-02-25, 19:41
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2015-02-16, 21:23
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2015-02-16, 19:40
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2015-02-15, 18:43
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George Jelliss,
2015-02-15, 18:24
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2015-02-13, 18:01
- Free Will: Excellent discussion (not) -
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2015-02-26, 08:00
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2015-09-02, 14:20
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2015-09-05, 18:47
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2015-09-06, 18:50
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2015-09-06, 20:21
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2015-09-06, 22:44
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- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-09-06, 20:21
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2015-09-06, 18:50
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2015-09-06, 16:40
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-09-05, 18:47
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-09-05, 15:54
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-09-05, 00:31
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- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-09-02, 14:20
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- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-09-01, 01:48
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2015-09-06, 17:16
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- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-11-12, 19:12
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- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-11-14, 15:43
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-11-15, 15:49
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-11-16, 12:56
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2015-11-16, 15:36
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- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-11-17, 18:15
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-18, 20:54
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-19, 01:15
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-19, 20:09
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-20, 01:25
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-11-20, 21:02
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2015-11-20, 22:13
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2016-01-05, 16:17
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2016-01-18, 06:19
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2016-02-05, 01:14
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2016-04-29, 19:46
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2016-04-30, 10:14
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romansh,
2016-05-01, 20:50
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2016-05-01, 21:06
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David Turell,
2016-05-01, 21:06
- Free Will: a new study, with timed reaction -
romansh,
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- Free Will: a new study, with timed reaction -
dhw,
2016-04-30, 10:14
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2016-04-29, 19:46
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2016-02-05, 01:14
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David Turell,
2016-01-07, 20:25
- Free Will: a new study -
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2016-01-05, 16:17
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-11-20, 22:13
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- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-11-20, 01:25
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-19, 20:09
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
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2015-11-19, 01:15
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-18, 20:54
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-17, 18:15
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-16, 15:36
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-16, 12:56
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-15, 15:49
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-15, 13:45
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-14, 15:43
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-11-14, 04:31
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-13, 13:12
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-11-13, 00:21
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-12, 21:52
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-11-12, 19:12
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-11-11, 18:47
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-11-11, 15:29
- A Sense of Free Will: a new essay -
David Turell,
2015-10-20, 01:09
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-28, 19:12
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-28, 00:47
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-27, 17:06
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-26, 18:24
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
BBella,
2015-09-20, 18:07
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-09-20, 14:59
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-20, 14:28
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-20, 00:18
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-19, 12:30
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-18, 17:59
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-17, 22:59
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-09-15, 18:33
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-15, 14:03
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-10, 11:42
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-10, 03:21
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
dhw,
2015-09-08, 17:30
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-07, 23:56
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-06, 17:16
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-09-06, 16:35
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
David Turell,
2015-08-31, 00:43
- A Sense of Free Will: the consciousness quagmire -
romansh,
2015-08-30, 19:14
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-30, 18:49
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-30, 18:46
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-15, 18:45
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-15, 00:25
- Free Will and Jerry Coyne -
romansh,
2015-08-14, 21:37
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-14, 00:10
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-13, 21:36
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-13, 18:07
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-13, 17:12
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-13, 16:30
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-13, 14:47
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-13, 14:31
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-12, 23:38
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-12, 22:55
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-12, 20:23
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-12, 14:13
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-11, 20:02
- A Sense of Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-11, 15:34
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-11, 14:35
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-11, 01:35
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-10, 20:00
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-10, 19:48
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-10, 17:39
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-10, 15:27
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-04, 04:01
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-04, 04:00
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-04, 01:44
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-03, 14:43
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-03, 04:50
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-02, 15:00
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-02, 14:32
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-02, 04:30
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-02, 02:25
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-01, 18:41
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-01, 17:59
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-01, 17:41
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-01, 16:54
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-08-01, 14:15
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
romansh,
2015-08-01, 02:37
- Free Will: requires a properly functioning brain -
David Turell,
2015-07-31, 22:36
- Free Will: another take on it -
David Turell,
2015-06-09, 14:24
- Free Will: childhood development of -
David Turell,
2015-05-04, 01:59
- Free Will: A new book says yes -
David Turell,
2015-04-03, 00:10
- Free Will: Round worm experiment -
David Turell,
2015-03-14, 17:06
- Free Will: Excellent discussion (not) -
David Turell,
2015-02-26, 14:54
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
dhw,
2015-02-13, 14:02
- Free Will: Excellent discussion -
David Turell,
2015-02-12, 15:42
- Free Will: Neuron cell division -
David Turell,
2015-01-25, 16:05
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2015-01-19, 00:36
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-18, 21:16
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2015-01-18, 19:38
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-18, 16:11
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2015-01-18, 05:50
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-18, 01:34
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2015-01-17, 21:38
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
romansh,
2015-01-17, 17:25
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2015-01-17, 00:59
- Free will: Sci Am survey -
David Turell,
2015-01-16, 00:10
- Free will: Dennett says not disproven by current science -
David Turell,
2014-10-18, 01:34
- Free will: new neurologic studies -
GateKeeper,
2014-06-25, 14:24
- Free will: new neurologic studies -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-06-25, 11:20
- Free will: new neurologic studies -
David Turell,
2014-06-24, 23:53
- Free will: brain activity -
David Turell,
2014-06-10, 17:17
- Free will: brain activity -
GateKeeper,
2014-06-10, 15:32
- Free will: brain activity -
David Turell,
2014-06-10, 15:11
- Free will: reasoned article -
David Turell,
2014-05-19, 17:56
- Free will: reasoned article -
romansh,
2014-05-19, 16:44
- Free will: reasoned article -
David Turell,
2014-05-19, 15:39
- Free will and wiring -
David Turell,
2014-04-03, 22:33