Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by dhw, Friday, December 04, 2020, 13:05 (1236 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I never said a seizure creates abstract thoughts. Neither does Egnor.

dhw: And neither did I. The whole point is that it STOPS abstract thinking/reasoning. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood your example. I thought you said the patient realized during the seizure that the smell of the sea was an illusion.

DAVID: The patient experienced a sensory event sent from a brain tumor that repeated a memorized smell, and reported it to me. She was clear she knew it was a problem and the whole event occurred when she was fully aware. It is an example of what is stored in the brain and can triggered into consciousness by an electrical event less than a seizure.

I don’t know what you are talking about now. Egnor’s case is based on seizures during which the patient is incapable of abstract reasoning. Now you’re telling me about a case which was not a seizure. So the abnormality hit part of your patient’s brain (the limbic system?) to cause an illusion, and the part of her brain (prefrontal cortex) that is responsible for abstract reasoning (materialist interpretation) was not affected. Where does the soul come into it?

DAVID: When the seizure electrical impulse enters the abstraction area it doesn't cause the brain to produce abstractions as it should if the brain was the only and total source of abstractions by itself.

dhw: What “abstraction area”? The whole point of dualism is that abstract thinking and reasoning is the province of the soul and not the brain! Why should an abnormal electrical impulse produce abstract thought in the BRAIN if the source of abstract thought is the SOUL?

DAVID: You constantly ignore the concept that the soul MUST activate and use brain circuits to have any thoughts at all during life. It cannot think without a live brain.

We have been over this a thousand times. I am the one who constantly has to point out to you that in life the dualist’s soul uses the brain to acquire information and to implement its thoughts, but the abstract reasoning and decision-making (the two focal points of Egnor’s argument) are done by the soul and not by the brain. Therefore it makes no sense to claim that when abnormal electrical impulses hit the brain, the soul becomes incapable of producing abstract reasoning and decisions!

QUOTE: Sperry, whose philosophy I would describe as idealist, rejected the prevailing materialism common among neuroscientists

dhw: In nearly all the subjects we discuss, there are conflicting arguments. I don’t for one moment imagine that materialist neuroscientists know less than Egnor about the brain. […] Why can't people see that there are usually two sides to these arguments?

QUOTE: "The emerging science of near-death experiences, as well as the evidence for mental activity even in the most profound states of coma, provide powerful evidence for the ability of the mind to function at least somewhat independently of the body.”

dhw: I pointed this out in my previous post. The conflict between this and “sick brain = sick thought”, and the fact that consciousness remains a total mystery, make it impossible for me to decide between the two schools of thought. That is why I stay on my fence!

DAVID: Consciousness is the mystery, not the origin of abstract thought. It comes from a conscious brain, driven by the self, which I name as the soul.

Why separate them? Abstract thought and decision-making are products of consciousness, and “no physics or chemistry explains thought” applies to them all. I don’t know how you can talk of a “conscious brain” when dualism attributes consciousness to the soul! Or do you believe that physical, chemical materials can think? Please answer.

DAVID: Egnor's point once again is if the brain alone can produce abstractions by itself, they have never appeared in petit mal or grand mal seizures stimulating the brain to act.

Yes, brains act, and the question is what directs their actions. You’ve just said it is the self or soul that does the driving! But the self or soul should not be affected by abnormal electrical impulses that hit the brain!

DAVID: But the stored stuff: smells, tastes. sounds, sensory stuff reappears, and do muscle movements of many various types. During brain surgery, experimentally all of this has been reproduced by mild stimulation by the surgeon, but never real thought!!! Real thought, abstractions, cannot be reproduced by stimulation. If the material brain is the real source, why not? You have no answer. This is not at the level of God and/or religion.

In your example, the non-seizure affected the sense of smell, but the patient was capable of abstract thinking. This could mean the thinking part of the brain was unaffected, or the soul was unaffected. A seizure is when the patient either loses consciousness completely (grand mal) or loses control and behaves strangely (petit mal). Presumably it’s the latter we’re talking about, and my question again is why an abnormal electrical impulse to the material brain should stop the immaterial soul from exercising control and producing “real thought, abstractions”. "You have no answer." If the brain is the source of abstract reasoning, then it will only be able to reason abstractly again when the seizure is over. And that is what happens.