Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE (Introduction)

by dhw, Tuesday, December 29, 2020, 09:24 (1212 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: This is the point where I question your fixed repeated statement in bold. Tell me how the soul uses the brain to create thought. What is the exact mechanism? I've told you my view. The soul must use the brain networks as its formative tool.

dhw: Nobody knows the “exact mechanism” that gives rise to consciousness and thought! You admit this later on: “We all recognize we do not know how an immaterial consciousness drives a material brain but it does.” Your view merely restates that the soul uses the brain, and yet again you omit to tell us what the soul uses the brain for!

DAVID: To enter the brain circuits to create thought. I don't know how I do it, but I use my brain to create thought.

A materialist would agree with that. The problem is that we do not know what constitutes “I”. You say mind/soul and body/brain. A materialist says body/brain. See below for more on this and on the soul “entering” the brain circuits.

dhw: In plain language: the beginning of the dualistic process is information supplied by the non-thinking brain, the soul then translates the information into meaningful thought, and the end is the soul instructing the brain to give material expression to its thoughts. What is your objection?

DAVID: The bold involves activating the brain by creating thought with it.

What does that mean, if it doesn’t mean the soul using the information provided by the brain, thinking about it, and using the brain to giving thought its material expression?

dhw: […] in dualism you are your soul, and your soul uses the brain as bolded above and repeated ad nauseam. The dualist’s brain can’t think for itself, because that is the function of the soul. And that is why it is absurd for a dualist to make the two bolded statements above. [dhw: Now bolded below]

DAVID: Again you HAVE A THINKING SOUL OFF TO THE SIDE TELLING THE BRAIN WHAT TO THINK AS IF NOT ATTACHED TO THE BRAIN WHILE CREATING THOUGHT.

Above, you talk of the soul “entering” the brain circuits. It’s you, then, who separate soul and brain! I have stated explicitly that if the soul exists, it must reside within the brain. The separation relates only to their different functions, which you refuse to acknowledge. But this is a red herring. You keep agreeing that the dualist’s brain does not do the thinking, and you keep telling us that it does do the thinking: hence the soul receiving “incorrect analytic thought” from the brain, and the psychopath’s brain being unable to form a correct judgement. You do the same in the next exchange:

dhw: A materialist would say an unconscious brain cannot think. Revive the unconscious brain, and it can think. The reviving medication/operation/weaning/sobering up works on the brain.

DAVID: Of course, when awake, the brain can be made to think by the soul.

So once again, instead of the soul doing the thinking (e.g. analysing and decision-making), we have the soul making the brain do the thinking (e.g. passing on incorrect analytic thought, or forming judgements). Whereas a week ago: “The soul is the analyzer, the brain its tool.”

dhw: Nobody knows the source of consciousness and hence of thought. The open question is whether “I” consist of mind/soul and body/brain, or just body and brain. The dualist’s soul uses the brain, and part of the materialist’s brain uses other parts of the brain. The diseased/cured brain clearly favours materialism, as above, and as epitomized by your bolded statements concerning the diseased brain’s incorrect analytic thought and inability to form a correct judgement. However, psychic experiences such as NDEs, support the theory that there is a soul which CAN think independently of the brain. Hence my own neutrality on the subject.

DAVID: The brain is and can be only a material tool. I drive my brain to make thought.

Nobody – dualist or materialist – can possibly disagree that I use my brain when I think. The
basic question to be answered is: what is “I”? Is it soul/mind plus brain/body (dualist) or brain/body alone (materialism)? Neither dualist nor materialist knows how immaterial consciousness - and hence the ability to think - comes to exist. However, diseased brains suggest that it is a product of the brain, whereas NDEs suggest that it is a product of a separate entity (source unknown) that resides within the brain until the body dies.