Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by David Turell , Friday, December 04, 2020, 19:27 (1239 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: I don’t know what you are talking about now. Egnor’s case is based on seizures during which the patient is incapable of abstract reasoning.

That is not Egnor's point. Seizures entering the pre-frontal and frontal cortex should unearth abstract thought if the brain alone is a manufacturer of them.

DAVID: When the seizure electrical impulse enters the abstraction area it doesn't cause the brain to produce abstractions as it should if the brain was the only and total source of abstractions by itself.

dhw: What “abstraction area”? The whole point of dualism is that abstract thinking and reasoning is the province of the soul and not the brain! Why should an abnormal electrical impulse produce abstract thought in the BRAIN if the source of abstract thought is the SOUL?

DAVID: You constantly ignore the concept that the soul MUST activate and use brain circuits to have any thoughts at all during life. It cannot think without a live brain.

dhw: We have been over this a thousand times. I am the one who constantly has to point out to you that in life the dualist’s soul uses the brain to acquire information and to implement its thoughts, but the abstract reasoning and decision-making (the two focal points of Egnor’s argument) are done by the soul and not by the brain. Therefore it makes no sense to claim that when abnormal electrical impulses hit the brain, the soul becomes incapable of producing abstract reasoning and decisions!

That is exactly not what he is claiming!!! See above. Egnor says the brain alone if stimulated NEVER invents an abstract thought on its own, soul not involved.

DAVID: Consciousness is the mystery, not the origin of abstract thought. It comes from a conscious brain, driven by the self, which I name as the soul.

dhw: Why separate them? Abstract thought and decision-making are products of consciousness, and “no physics or chemistry explains thought” applies to them all. I don’t know how you can talk of a “conscious brain” when dualism attributes consciousness to the soul! Or do you believe that physical, chemical materials can think? Please answer.

My opinion has been quite clear!!! The brain can't think by itself. A connected soul must do it using the brain's neuron networks. You are correct. With a connected soul consciousness appears and abstract thought can then be created.

DAVID: Egnor's point once again is if the brain alone can produce abstractions by itself, they have never appeared in petit mal or grand mal seizures stimulating the brain to act.

dhw: Yes, brains act, and the question is what directs their actions. You’ve just said it is the self or soul that does the driving! But the self or soul should not be affected by abnormal electrical impulses that hit the brain!

That is not Egnor's point. He is discussing an electrical impulse hitting abnormally in the brain, NO SOUL AT WORK or PRESENT. If the brain alone can produce abstractions, why don't they appear ever stimulated by electrical impulses?

DAVID: But the stored stuff: smells, tastes. sounds, sensory stuff reappears, and do muscle movements of many various types. During brain surgery, experimentally all of this has been reproduced by mild stimulation by the surgeon, but never real thought!!! Real thought, abstractions, cannot be reproduced by stimulation. If the material brain is the real source, why not? You have no answer. This is not at the level of God and/or religion.

dhw: In your example, the non-seizure affected the sense of smell, but the patient was capable of abstract thinking. This could mean the thinking part of the brain was unaffected, or the soul was unaffected. A seizure is when the patient either loses consciousness completely (grand mal) or loses control and behaves strangely (petit mal). Presumably it’s the latter we’re talking about, and my question again is why an abnormal electrical impulse to the material brain should stop the immaterial soul from exercising control and producing “real thought, abstractions”. "You have no answer." If the brain is the source of abstract reasoning, then it will only be able to reason abstractly again when the seizure is over. And that is what happens.

Egnor does not define the type of seizure, so I've defined both. Your understanding of his point is totally confused. I've given you his view above. I accept it. Electrical impulses drive neurons to produce thought, only if the soul is driving the impulses. They never appear in seizures if ONLY the brain is involved in the activity of producing abstractions.