Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by David Turell , Monday, November 16, 2020, 15:36 (1468 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: […] if the soul does the thinking and makes the decisions, why does the patient lose control and behave abnormally? Do you think the soul nods off during a seizure, or thinks to itself: this is weird but not much I can do about it?

DAVID: You forget I posit that the soul must use the brain to think in life. During a seizure the brain cannot work properly as it is subject to an electrical storm. The living soul does not think at that moment.

dhw: You forget that the soul – if it exists – uses the brain to gather information and to implement its thoughts. In the circumstances, one might have expected the soul to gather information that something has gone wrong with the brain, and dammit, the brain won’t implement the soul’s thoughts that this needs to stop. Have you heard of any patients reporting such thoughts during such seizures? That would really help the cause of dualism.

Good point. You imply the possibility the soul separates from a sick brain and has independent experiences/thought as in an NDE. Not fitting the current theory. A sick brain distorts the soul's ability to think properly, as we have previously noted. In a seizure the soul is still brain dependent for experiences and thought. Clear thought/experience not possible.

dhw: You said that, for example, your genes “help make IQ”. Do you think your intelligence level has no influence on your decisions? Do you think that decisions are not influenced by genetic disorders, or by other material factors such as diseases, accidents, physical traumas such as rape?

DAVID: I'm talking about normal folks who develop their personality normally. You have brought all sorts of events which can damage a personality, and that aspect is correct. But none of that has damaged my personality.

dhw: Lucky you. I have no idea what you mean by “normal”, but I presume you mean yourself. But the fact that material influences can affect the personality means that material influences can affect the decisions taken by the person concerned. You gave me the example of the IQ but proceeded to ignore it. Would you say your level of intelligence has had an influence on your decision-making?

Sure it does, but my IQ is both inherited and developed by my own efforts to improve it. I'll stick with an intellect/personality 40% inherited, 40% experienced, and 20% self developed. But the final effect is a decision today is influenced by all in the past freely taken into account and so the immediate decision is freely made.

DAVID: Malaria lead you to a wonderful wife. In that aspect you were changed. But your love was immaterial, remember, and of your free will.

dhw: Why don’t you answer my question? Malaria did not change my personality and did not influence my decision to marry the girl I loved. Not all material events influence or change the personality! But all this is only one side of the story, as below:

dhw: On the other hand, I recognize that all those factors have contributed to the unique combination of qualities and defects that make up my unique identity, and so the decisions are taken by “me”. Apart from the limitations imposed by the situation and by my own capabilities, they are free from outside constraints that are not “me”. And so I can say I do have free will.

DAVID: I agree generally. What shapes your thought patterns may change your thinking, but the final thoughts in an decision are yours freely. Final decisions are free at the time they are made.

dhw: You agree with my second proposal and try to discount the first. Once again, our view of whether we have free will or not depends on what we think we are free from. Influences that have shaped our personality? I say no. But we are free if we argue that it is our unique personality (including all those influences) that takes the decisions, and we are subject to no constraints other than the limitations imposed by the situation and/or our own capabilities (e.g. we cannot decide to flap our arms and fly).

It looks as if we agree. The past influences the decisions we make freely in the present. Romansh's point was our brain particles in action limited our free will since we depend upon them. I ignore that approach as not valid.