Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof - PART ONE (Introduction)

by David Turell , Friday, January 01, 2021, 00:11 (1208 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Nobody understands consciousness, but one theory is that its source is the brain. i.e. that it is a product of the biochemical interactions of the brain cells. That is materialism – precisely as you have described it. No “garbage” involved.

DAVID: A conscious brain is worthless unless there is living self/soul to drive it. Pure dualism. The material brain is only a tool. There has to be a material part and an immaterial part. Pure material, as in a brain does nothing unless alive, and that is an emergent event..

dhw: Not even a materialist would deny that the brain has to be alive in order to think! That doesn’t mean there must be a separate entity called the soul which “emerges” from...what? You simply solve the mystery by creating another mystery!

Exactly. The matter that forms any organism is not alive unless life emerges. That is one of the mysteries. The other is the consciousness which emerges, and then thought appears. The materialist leaves out the two emergent properties, both of which imply immaterial levels ah td have to magically appear.

dhw: […] whereas NDEs suggest that it is a product of a separate entity (source unknown) that resides within the brain until the body dies.

DAVID: Yes, doesn't that pose a problem for pure materialists? Which is why I am a double dualist, once in life and again in life and after death I see the soul in two forms.

dhw: Yes, it poses a problem for someone who believes that “of course consciousness is an emergent product of the brain” and “of all the biochemical interactions of all cells in concert”. That is why, just like me, you are torn between the materialism you have just espoused and the dualism of NDEs which (please note) I described above as evidence for a “separate entity” […] Welcome to my fence.

DAVID: I'm not on the fence with you if you read my approach above. A pile of material proteins is simply a pile of material proteins. It requires the emergence of life and of consciousness, immaterial events we cannot explain. We know what is living, and we know that carefully designed functions and interconnections with biochemicals somehow creates living organisms. Thus the original basis is material. It has to be.

dhw: Once again, we are in complete agreement. No one can explain life and consciousness. Materialists believe – just as you do – that these both emerge from biochemicals.

Not by themselves. There is an additional spark that makes it all begin, and that is God's gift.

DAVID: What happens next is magical and immaterial. Why do life and consciousness appear? We have no answer at the material level itself. There is no way around the obvious dualism and the need for magic. That is where God is required.

dhw: We have no answer at ANY level, and so there are two theories. 1) The magic emerges somehow from the combination of materials, as you have described. 2) The magic emerges somehow from a mysterious, immaterial something (let’s call it a soul, because a name will make it sound real) designed by a mysterious magical, unknown being (let’s call him God). Diseased brains support 1), and NDEs support 2). You have embraced 1), materialism, with your crystal clear statement that consciousness is a product of the brain cells, but your belief in a mysterious, immaterial something as a separate entity which lives on after the death of the brain (NDEs) means you also embrace 2), dualism. You are on my fence, whether you like it or not!

It's just I don't believe it like you do. Piles of chemical even put together in a dead corpse are not life. We can't explain why we live any more than we can explain how we think with a consciousness. yes there is a material basis that is used by a living consciousness and that aspect is immaterial, and appears magically, we say from God, and that is true dualism, not materialism for me and Egnor, as believers. You see the material side as a non-believer. looking one way from your fence. And then there is tentative look the other way, giving two sides to the fence you sit atop. I don't have a fence. I'm totally on one side and I see the materials as simply tools, and don't accept your thoughts that I am accepting materialism. I don't. I see emergent life and consciousness that cannot arise from materials except with God's help.