Free Will: Egnor shows neurological proof (Introduction)

by dhw, Sunday, November 29, 2020, 09:24 (1455 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: We’re talking about seizures, and you have told us that after a seizure, no patient has ever told you about the “proper” thoughts he had while his brain was distorting them. The obvious conclusion is that the thoughts came from the brain. You don’t need a soul to think proper thoughts which the brain distorts into improper thoughts!

DAVID: The brain works on electric circuits to produce the soul's thoughts.

Materialist view: the brain works on electric circuits to produce thoughts.

DAVID: Seizures force electricity to surge through the brain in whole or in part. That electricity, under no controls produces no thoughts. Therefore the brain, on its own does not/cannot think. The soul produces its thought by managing electrical stimulations of the neuron networks. Schizophrenia is just an example of how the brain handles thoughts in a sickly way to show the soul's dependence on normality in the brain function. You seem confused to me about this soul/brain relationship.

You have tried to explain the dualist’s perspective. The materialist will tell you that if the sick brain “handles thoughts in a sickly way”, and you end up with sick thoughts, then clearly the brain is the source of thought. There is no role for a "soul" to play. No confusion – just different interpretations. Let’s get back to free will.

dhw: This argument makes total nonsense of your concept of free will: “the soul can only think with the form of brain it has to work with”, so clever brain, clever thoughts; stupid brain, stupid thoughts; warped brain, warped thoughts. And these conditions don’t influence your decisions? You could hardly have a more devastating rebuttal of free will (we’ll leave dualism out of it for the time being)

DAVID: Exactly!!! Your bolded phrase is correct!!! They limit your possibilities/range of thought. Sick brains force sick thinking. Limited brain caused limited thinking. The free will expression of thoughts will be sick and limited in a sick brain. Full and 'normal' free will requires a normal brain.

Aside from the problem of what constitutes “normal”, you’ve almost got it! But if the sick brain forces sick thinking, the determinist will tell you that your thinking is dependent on your brain, and so there is no such thing as free will, and since the nature of thought depends on the brain, the materialist/determinist will tell you that there is no such thing as the “soul”. (NB: as an aside, another form of determinism is religious: it argues that God knows everything, therefore he knows the future, therefore the future is fixed and we don’t have free will. But that too would come under Option 1: you can’t escape the influence of predestination!)

DAVID: Remember the person with a limited brain still has his own free will within the limits. No loss of free will theory.

Yes, that is option 2: we are our individual selves, and are free within the constraints of the situation and our own limitations.

dhw: The incompetent brain is “you”, and “you” alone take your decisions with no constraints other than those of the situation AND YOUR OWN LIMITATIONS. Option 1 is that you cannot help having an incompetent brain – it is something you were born with, and it determines your decisions even if you don’t realize it – as is the case with innumerable other factors that have never been under your control (upbringing, disease, accidents, traumatic experiences imposed from outside yourself…)

DAVID: Agreed as it fits my exposition of brain neurology of thought.
Yes, you agree with option 2, as bolded.

dhw: And I must now add that if your “soul” can only think with the form of brain it has to work with, then the brain will determine what you wish to be.

DAVID: See above. We all have limits. I'm not the genius Einstein was. As I've noted in the past the complexity of one's concepts depends on the complex ability of one's brain to allow their production, etc. etc. […] So I will agree with you in a limited way. We all have limits to our desires about our possible accomplishments in life.

dhw: You are agreeing with me in a total way. All this is option 2, as bolded above. And what you are missing is option 1. And our conclusion will depend on which of these approaches we adopt.

DAVID: As I interpret both your options, both are valid and correct. You are forced to use the brain you are given or develop in illness or whatever circumstance alters its function. But free will is still exercised within the old or new limits that appear.

Yes, both are valid and correct, and so your belief or disbelief in free will depends on which of the approaches you adopt. Thank you for agreeing with me at last! Egnor has “proved” nothing, and I think we can now close this thread.